Working offline with local workspace and cache

robert_zschoche

How do I work offline when there is no internet access and store local data that can be backed up and re-synced to the cloud once internet is avaliable

Stuart_Tod

@robert_zschoche

Onshape is a purely 'cloud' based system. If you're offline, then no access...but no saving, backing up or re-synching either, everything you do has been recorded up until the moment you closed down!

Stuart_Tod

@robert_zschoche

Onshape is a purely 'cloud' based system. If you're offline, then no access...but no saving, backing up or re-synching either, everything you do has been recorded up until the moment you closed down!

Narayan_K

Is Onshape app also working same as we work from our laptop...?
working from PC will work through some web browser but Onshape app different right..? why not onshape app can store offline data and update while in online.Same thing working for Google drive... 

pete_yodis

Narayan_K said:

Is Onshape app also working same as we work from our laptop...?
working from PC will work through some web browser but Onshape app different right..? why not onshape app can store offline data and update while in online.Same thing working for Google drive... 

@Narayan_K There is a fundamental trade-off, I believe, when you talk about off-line editing of data.  In that realm now you have to get into managing copies of the data, who has updated what, was it synced back to the cloud, who else has what other copies, do they need to be synced, and did those synced copies overwrite each others changes.  Translation, it's a sticky ball of wax that would really be better if we didn't have to wade into that.  A pure cloud based solution has HUGE advantages on the data management side of things.  You can avoid all the aforementioned issues, and others, if you don't travel down that path.  The spread, speed, and quality of internet access is growing massively and won't be slowing down anytime soon.  I think Onshape would be architecting a system for a soon to be outdated set of circumstances.  They have bet on the internet access only improving, and I think it's a really wise bet. 

If local editing was made available, then on the development side of things, Onshape might then also have to do a lot more work to make local editing work across Windows, Android, IOS, and MacOS (This last bit is my guess, because I'm not a software developer).  There would be a lot of complexity added for what is probably not enough benefit for their intended market.  If people really need a local edit CAD package, then at least at this point Onshape is not their answer.

3dcad

If there were significant need to use Onshape offline (which I don't see) I would prefer it creating a new branch of each offline session which could be manually merged into main when back online.

But I think better idea is to rest when offline and design online  

shashank_aarya

I would like to share some of my thoughts here with. Imagine the time period when designers were using pencils, erasers, drafting devices, drawing sheet, drawing board etc. That time Auto-CAD 2D was just like a dream to every CAD user, since use of computer was limited to specific fields like defense, space missions etc. But as technology advanced Auto-CAD was essential to every CAD user. Now during the period of Auto-CAD, 3D CAD was also a dream to everyone. Everyone loved the initial preview of 3D CAD but worrying factors were licence cost, system configuration etc. But again with advancing of technology, 3D CAD easily won the heart of many users. So, my thought here is every technology is discovered considering the future of anything.
I believe that Onshape is also designed considering the future where every CAD user will have high speed internet connectivity at any point of time, everyone will have laptop, smartphones, tablet devices with higher configurations. So, there won't be any need of storing data to hard drive. That time user may get even 1000 Gb or may be unlimited data storage (Considering this just as a dream at this point of time  ). When everyone will get familiar with it in future, again there will be a new technology. That will be a future at that time. This is obviously a natural way of progress of any technology.

robert_zschoche

Thanks everyone for your feedback.  I agree that online in the cloud seems like the best way to go for many reasons that have all been expressed. Unfortunately as a consultant working with data originating from other CAD and Data management systems, my clients are very concerned about being able to take control of all completed development IP by hosting it on their local servers using their local software because they have invested millions in those systems with years of history based IP already being managed.

Ultimately my clients will want:
> Fully parametric CAD data in their prefered CAD platform and data management systems.
> All development IP backed up on their servers behind their firewall.
> Should that be in the form of "Onshape data", they will want a way to open, review, and manipulate legacy released IP with software that is hosted and managed on their network.. again behind their firewall
> A guarantee that if Onshape closed their doors to business some day in the future, that they can retrieve, access, and manipulate the Onshape CAD IP using localised software.

If all my clients were starting from scratch with no legacy IP, then onshape is the way to go and I would be all over it.  Unfortunately I work with established companies that have established software so Onshape in my world is only "another tool".  in order to use that tool 100% of the paid for IP will eventually be returned to the client on project completion.  not as a .stp or some other exported geometry but as complete history based CAD data that is fully constrained and detailed with all links in place.

mark_biasotti

Robert,
I'm glad you are keeping this topic alive, because it is an issue that OnS needs to deal with if they are going to be competitive in the near future. Obviously no one in their Alewife office commutes on public transit and does intense CAD work, therefore I do not consider them in touch with reality and a number of us designers that want to work but in some cases do not have internet connection.  
I on the other hand, am typing this response riding on CalTrain from SF down to San Jose CA. Currently I can not use OnShape because there is no Wi-Fi connection on the train and my tether connection is too slow for OnShape and I don't have the minutes to pay for tethering that kind of data transfer. 
I'm a product designer and currently working with a few clients in San Francisco. A few weeks ago I was able to get some very meaningful CAD accomplish riding up to SF on the train. My solution: I was using a borrowed SW license (we have network license at Spanner) and my client is using GrabCAD. I have a  GC sync desktop app. It works very well and I was able to finish my work on the 1.5 hr. commute, walk into their offices and review my work with them - Sweet!!!
My wish would be for OnS to develop  (like @3DCAD mentions and I have also mentioned before) an ability to use there branch/merge to sync while there is no internet connection, and some kind of local temporary resident app version of OnS that can only be used temporarily for situations like this. 

Mark

mark_biasotti

Let me just add... I love what OnS is doing with their product and in-the-cloud is the way to go for the benefits of versioning, low IT overhead etc.  I just think that Connection services, when mobile and public, have not been reliable and spotty at best.

Mark

3dcad

@robert_zschoche @mark_biasotti
What do you think of the idea to partner with some other cad to provide exporting to offline use with history, constraints etc. ?

3dsystems seems to be listed in techical partners and they have acquired Alibre few years ago, it's currently called Geomagic Design - it's priceclass would be suitable for being 'offline' option for Onshape.

michael3424

I think that any offline use capability should be native to Onshape - too many potential issues if a different CAD product provides that service.  WRT Alibre/Geomagic - think back on how many "partnerships" they have backed out of over the past 10 years.

pete_yodis

mark_biasotti said:

Currently I can not use OnShape because there is no Wi-Fi connection on the train and my tether connection is too slow for OnShape and I don't have the minutes to pay for tethering that kind of data transfer.

@mark_biasotti,  Just thinking out loud...  What would be the cost of the additional minutes and/or data on the tether?  I ask because the 5 year amortized cost of SolidWorks with subscription is around $175 a month.  Also, have you been using Onshape and seen yourself run into data issues on your connection, or is there a fear that you will run into issues.  My experience has been for things I have worked on (not huge data sets mind you), the data connection required is phenomenally low.  I have been in circumstances where I couldn't Skype voice, but I could easily use Onshape.  The connection was a sketchy 4G one, that dropped to 3G every now and then.

robert_zschoche

Mark.  I agree with your comments and have experienced those as well during travel, especially when flying.  Its not just travel but also when working in third world and remote regions of the world, in processing plants that do not allow visitor internet access or if they do its throttled down to a crawl. Also these manufacturing plants have a lot of EMI noise with high power electrical devices running in the plant which makes wifi and cell signal in order to tether impossible.

If I could have the ultimate system it would have:
> All the aspects of cloud that onshape provides now
> parametric and history revisioning  in other CAD systems using onshape  (Good luck with that one)
> Offline ability for modeling and presentation when in client offices with internet restrictions
>Offline backup and storage of client owned IP behind their firewall.
> A paid for Onshape app that allows all developed IP to be managed, stored, and secured by a client without the need for them to go online.

Certainly the cloud piece is a great way to go for collaboration... although it's not a new idea and most other CAD providers have similar capabilities such as autocad 360, PTC windchill, and so on. In these cases the cloud is located at the clients data server.  Onshape seems easy enough to use but without a way to fully own the IP in the end, my Clients won't switch to another mouse trap because I want them too.

pete_yodis

@robert_zschoche I get the place where no connection is available, but for some reference....3rd World country...  3G/4G...  Have you had experience with Onshape being too greedy on the data connection side of things, or is this conjecture?  Bear with me, I am trying to understand the nuances.  My experience has been pretty good.  The limitations are quite a bit lower than even what I thought.

3dcad

michael3424 said:

.. Alibre/Geomagic - think back on how many "partnerships" they have backed out of over the past 10 years.

You are right, Alibre partner addons had a lot of short term changes, but I think it will settle down while 3dsystems finishes replacing addons with their own solutions.

ps. I'm not saying it would necessarily be Geomagic to work as offline Onshape, but more like the idea of partnering with SOME good reasonably priced offline cad. Solidworks would be ideal solution for many, but hobbyists and micro-business would be left out.

kevin_quigley

This is a topic that will never go away. And rightly so. Some have said the benefit of the cloud only approach is data management and only having one file (in the cloud). Well why can't this work for desktop sync as well? Why can't the Onshape file you are working on be stored on the cloud and on the local drive in a hidden or encrypted location that only the Onshape application can access? That way, from the user's perspective, there is only one file. When you are online, the app uses the cloud. When you go offline the app stores to the local file. When you go back online it syncs.

I think the issue here is not where files are stored, it is whether or not Onshape will every release a desktop app that can handle this (like Fusion does). So I think it is a fundamental ethos thing here - all cloud or nothing.

Personally I would prefer the option of a local sync/install. Like Mark said, there are still many locations in our day to day working world when the mobile CAD user loses signal, and no amount of Onshape PR on "look at me using CAD on an iphone halfway up a mountain" is going to change that fact. We are talking practical day to day CAD usage here. In 2015 I cannot get on a train and travel to London without there being (a lot of) areas I lose signal, and the onboard train WiFi is horrendously bad. In these cases I cannot use cloud only apps.

The issue for Onshape and others like them are do they stick to their cloud only ethos and hope that telecom infrastucture catches up quickly to support their sales plans, or develop a desktop app for those times when you are out of signal. One final thought. Travelling WiFi often comes at a heavy cost - a heavy financial cost. So in costing cloud only apps you need to build in that cost if you are a regular traveller as part of the running costs of the software. The advantage of a desktop app with sync is that you can do the work offline then sync up when you get to a free Wifi service or 4G area, so you can use up some of your 10GB monthly allowance!

pete_yodis

@kevin_quigley Maybe if you could run an instance of AWS on your local device (even virutailized maybe?), this might be easier to pull off.  I'm just spit balling. 

3dcad

kevin_quigley said:

This is a topic that will never go away. And rightly so. Some have said the benefit of the cloud only approach is data management and only having one file (in the cloud). Well why can't this work for desktop sync as well? Why can't the Onshape file you are working on be stored on the cloud and on the local drive in a hidden or encrypted location that only the Onshape application can access? That way, from the user's perspective, there is only one file. When you are online, the app uses the cloud. When you go offline the app stores to the local file. When you go back online it syncs.

This would only work for non-shared documents. Or by creating new version for every offline session.

I think the issue here is not where files are stored, it is whether or not Onshape will every release a desktop app that can handle this (like Fusion does). So I think it is a fundamental ethos thing here - all cloud or nothing.

Personally I would prefer the option of a local sync/install. Like Mark said, there are still many locations in our day to day working world when the mobile CAD user loses signal, and no amount of Onshape PR on "look at me using CAD on an iphone halfway up a mountain" is going to change that fact. We are talking practical day to day CAD usage here. In 2015 I cannot get on a train and travel to London without there being (a lot of) areas I lose signal, and the onboard train WiFi is horrendously bad. In these cases I cannot use cloud only apps.

But Onshape PR is all about being the first 'Cloud only' cad, isn't that the reason why we all are here? Why would we wan't to change that since we already have plenty of offline cads which can sync files with dropbox or PDM.

The issue for Onshape and others like them are do they stick to their cloud only ethos and hope that telecom infrastucture catches up quickly to support their sales plans, or develop a desktop app for those times when you are out of signal. One final thought. Travelling WiFi often comes at a heavy cost - a heavy financial cost. So in costing cloud only apps you need to build in that cost if you are a regular traveller as part of the running costs of the software. The advantage of a desktop app with sync is that you can do the work offline then sync up when you get to a free Wifi service or 4G area, so you can use up some of your 10GB monthly allowance!

In Finland most of 3G/4G providers offer unlimited data for very reasonable price (like 9,90€/m). It is a privilege.
But I agree there is a lot of holes in coverage when traveling. 

Do you really use your offline cad on the go? I'm doing 90+% of design work in my office with powerful computer, 2 big screens, 3d mouse and 100mb fiber connection - no problem using Onshape. Less than 10% of work is done in meetings, hotel, exhibition, car (chromebook, ipad).

I have really found Onshape to be a lot more useful than offline cad in laptop, I can quickly show something from my phone, make some minor changes with ipad in meetings and do some actual work at hotel with light chromebook.
The old days, I needed to prepare heavy powerful laptop by copying all the necessary files from local server and update cad to same version as I had in office. After couple of hours, I needed to recharge. When I came back I needed to upload files back to local server and hope I didn't lost any constraints between files. Usually, I just took notes on the go and came back to office for cad. 
My life has changed.

kevin_quigley

That was me real point. Onshape has a core ethos of cloud CAD so providing any form of desktop offline use requires a change of ethos. This is the primary differentiator between Onshape and the likes of Fusion360 or the SolidWorks Cloud apps or even CATIAv6. These are all local installs that sync to the cloud. The issue for Onshape is simply can they bring in paying subscribers fast enough to offset costs. If they can, then the argument is moot, they stick to the core cloud only ethos. If not...

As for actually using CAD I am similar to you in that 95% of the time I am using a workstation multi screen set up in the office (though I envy you the connection speed, ours is a pathetic 12mb down and 0.5 up... The alternative is a£4k a year leased line). The vast majority of my mobile use is viewing or making tweaks, or the occasional conceptual level work or drawing tweak.

where we differ is that I subscribe to LogMeIn and Glance, so can log into the workstation in the office and use any app. I cannot begin to express how much time and hassle this has saved over the years. Mobility is not just about CAD use, it is access to files, and applications. This set up works very well over 4G or a good WiFi connection. Even works OK on 3G. So when things go tits up and I'm on holiday I can at least log in from my ipad and direct edits or do them after hours. A recent 4 hr delay at Eurotunnel was actually helpful as I managed to log into the office and tweak a few files that needed urgent changes after I left for holiday. Eurotunnel terminii have excellent WiFi! On a work trip, active projects are kept on Dropbox so all the files are synced automatically and can be used offline, then sync automatically when back online.

But the issue is more about the times you have no connection at all. For a minute or two here and there in transit, it is not a big problem. But if your business meeting is in a dead zone, or the apartment or hotel offers nothing except in the lobby, you are stuck.

3dcad

kevin_quigley said:

..

But the issue is more about the times you have no connection at all. For a minute or two here and there in transit, it is not a big problem. But if your business meeting is in a dead zone, or the apartment or hotel offers nothing except in the lobby, you are stuck.

I understand this might be the case somewhere (for example Lapland in Finland).

What do you Kevin think about solution to team up with some existing cad (or have a completely new startup for this) and sync the features so that you could easily import/export models with history? 

jakeramsley

pete_yodis said:

If local editing was made available, then on the development side of things, Onshape might then also have to do a lot more work to make local editing work across Windows, Android, IOS, and MacOS (This last bit is my guess, because I'm not a software developer).

This is correct and realistically would require a downloaded client that would have to be in sync with the current version of Onshape.

pete_yodis

jakeramsley said:

pete_yodis said:

If local editing was made available, then on the development side of things, Onshape might then also have to do a lot more work to make local editing work across Windows, Android, IOS, and MacOS (This last bit is my guess, because I'm not a software developer).

This is correct and realistically would require a downloaded client that would have to be in sync with the current version of Onshape.

Thanks for confirming @jakeramsley
I would confirm the stance of Onshape as it is currently.  Unless I can see otherwise, I think the discussion about not being able to access Onshape in a great enough bandwidth capacity when you need to do serious work is more FUD than anything.  I think it is nitpicking a bit when folks haven't realistically run into that themselves.  I could be wrong about this, but my own experience doesn't honestly allow me to come to that conclusion.  Let's not complicate the product for mostly unrealistic situations, if that's the case.  There may be room for a viewer, however for situations where meetings may be conducted in odd locations.  Who really does CADDing in meetings?  It's mostly just spinning things around, sectioning, and commenting.  We don't need connected CAD if that's the case.  Comments could be uploaded to the Onshape Cloud CAD platform with an offline viewer if that's the case. 

Skippy

I can see that offline access would be handy in some cases but it just seems to go against the way onshape works. I cant imagine it happening any time soon, if ever. 

andrew_troup

 I agree with @Skippy
There would be a real risk of Onshape ending up as a proverbial "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" if they were to attempt to make all of everyone's problems go away.

Luckily I think they've been around too long, and their sense of what they're trying to provide is too focussed, for them to fall into that particular trap.
There's a difference between taking account of diverse needs in a highly responsive way, and betting the farm on each and every one.
Some needs will always be better served by a competing product, and it's magical thinking to wish that away.

_Ðave_

I just had to look it up.

andrew_troup

yes, sorry to be obscure, you nailed it @da_vicki
something along the lines of a mythical "egg-laying wool-milk-pig"

Multitools have their place, but the so-called Swiss Army knife with the magnifying glass, cupholder and USB port ..... ?
 
I used to have a real Swiss army knife, the sort they issue to soldiers, and it had exactly four features.

pete_yodis

andrew_troup said:

yes, sorry to be obscure, you nailed it @da_vicki
something along the lines of a mythical "egg-laying wool-milk-pig"

Multitools have their place, but the so-called Swiss Army knife with the magnifying glass, cupholder and USB port ..... ?
 
I used to have a real Swiss army knife, the sort they issue to soldiers, and it had exactly four features.

@andrew_troup Thanks for that reference....

robert_zschoche

Lots of good dialog here and some interesting techy workarounds for the CAD piece

One of my main original questions however is about how I deliver highly CAD platform specific IP (onshape) to my client at project end so they own it behind their firewall and can manipulate it as needed going forward after I am out of the picture.

Is the expectation for every large company to become Onshape subscribers and integrate online only methodology to their IT infrastructure when they are not set up to operate that way?

Bottom line is as much as I would like to get all my clients to be an Onshape subscribers, I can't sell that approach to most of them and as such won't earn their business as a consultant.  I need to provide hard IP with offline apps at project completion so they can access that IP without "another" system to manage.

dennis_20

@robert_zschoche As far as transferring ownership goes, there was a discussion in another thread about that very thing: "Transfer Ownership" of a file or set of files.  You could do this once you have been paid - transfer ownership of the files from you to someone at the client company with an Onshape account and then they can establish what access and privileges you have.  They would then have ownership/possession of the files and its IP.

3dcad

Not so long time ago companies used to have one computer connected to internet and workstation were only connected to local network.
Currently companies invest in firewalls'n'stuff but the cloud is coming in - fast.
When companies are ready, Onshape will be ready too

pete_yodis

@robert_zschoche I think the companies you consult to will have to have an adjustment in their thinking in order to embrace a more efficient future.  Just my hunch.  I face a little bit of what you mention in the day job, so I get it.  The reason to continue what they are doing because they have already invested millions down the path they have gone, is not really a good reason.  Is it security of the data they are worried about?  Is it locking data in the Onshape format they are worried about? (It's the case with ANY CAD product).  Is it worrying about the internet going down for long periods of time?  Can they tell you?