The Perfect Mouse for CAD

euan_dykes · January 2

Ok I know I'm opening a pandoras box when the title of my comment is such. I have being doing graphic design and CAD since I was a teen. And along the way I have thoroughly tested every major human input device to get that old curser to move around a screen. Reading this post might save you lots, as I've spend a fortune on this over the years. Also I'm not writing about 3D mouse. I've already opened that box over here:

3D Connexion 3D mouse - It's productive; not how you think it might be — Onshape

I would love to share my experience in order of what I've tried.

The humble standard mouse you get with the home PC. Two buttons, roller ball, cable.
The reason it was ditched: Constant ball and roller cleaning operations.
The optical mouse. This solved that major pain point of cleaning. And this was going to be my final mouse. Or so I thought.
The iMac Hocky Puck mouse, this is when my problems started. I was forced to use this mouse as it came with the 9 month course I was on.
It's the way you have to hold it and the constant clicking, I developed overuse syndromes. And later when I switch back to the optical mouse, the problems persisted. I was using the mouse way more than I was in my earlier computer days. I had friends in the film and entertainment industry having to quit their careers from overuse issues. This is when my quest began.
The 3M Joystick mouse. Takes some getting use to.
The reason it was ditched: No scroll and PC OS was getting more and more scroll like.
Pen pad. Let's get as far away from the mouse as we can.
The reason it was ditched: Constant moves between the keyboard and pad mean you have to constantly place a pen in a holder all the time, or simply type with it in your hands.
The Apple Mouse with the roller ball in the middle. This was also when I started in CAD having stopped graphic design.
The reason it was ditched: Initially any new input device had it's honeymoon period after some intense months this mouse was back to the same mouse issues.
The Thumb Trackball Mouse.
The reason it was ditched: Still pain and now new pain in my thumb.
Gaming Mouse. This was it, I thought, gamers have prolonged use of a mouse. So a gaming mouse must be the answer.
The reason it was ditched: Still cause pain.
The Ergonomic Mouse: Endorsed by doctors, so if I get pain, I can blame doctors now.
The reason it was ditched: Still causes pain. At this point I was starting to take things more seriously. I filmed myself using my PC and that's when I noticed I was holding my right pointer finger away from the clicker. I guess to avoid accidental clicking. Something that when you use tight UIs that demand precision you learn the hard way what accidental clicks do.
Finger Track Ball Mouse 1: I switched the primary clicker to my ring finger thinking that if I train a new digit to click it might not have the same issue.
The reason it was ditched: Causes the same pain in other part of lower arm. It's mostly due to the click and hold while you move the ball in the pointer and index finger.
Kensignton Finger Track Ball: This one has a flat button deck in all 4 quadrants around the ball. I stuck with the defaults and just learned to click with my thumb.
The reason I still have it: So far even with some intensive Onshape sessions there hasn't been too much pain.

Is it the perfect mouse for CAD? I don't believe there is one, I don't like the ball scrolling on this latest mouse and I keep accidently hitting back, which in Onshape is annoying because you go back in the browser. As long as it prevents the pain, I'll be keeping it. I believe it's ok because the thumb needs to tap down like how it does on the spacebar on the keyboard. It's more like a hammer action this seems better fitting for clicking that pointer finger tapping all day long.

If you are thinking of a track ball mouse: One of the bonus features you get is, you can ditch your mouse pad, and the cable isn't having to move so no need for batteries and or wireless connectivity issues. It's always in the same place on the desk surface. So moving between keyboard and curser is fast. Really the only downside to track balls is portability. You can't just grab it and gather it in your arms while being late to a meeting, you'll loose the ball or damage it. Although a simple transport clip would solve that. Ok well I have something to design in Onshape now. See you later. Can any of you relate to my struggle? Have you found something else I didn't yet try? I'd love to read it in the comments.

Rhett_Robinson · January 2

I use the Logitech MX Master 3 and it has been gamechanging for me, but I also think there are more factors than just the ergonomics of a mouse. Since I just got back from travel where I wasn't using my normal desk, it is fresh in my mind that posture at the computer and the angle my arm is sitting to the mouse and desk has a big impact on how my hands feel day after day. If I have good posture and my arm is close to 90 degrees (I rest my elbow and just forward of it on my chairs armrest), then my hands feel great. If my desk is too high or low it really starts to bug my hands. I have also noticed that doomscrolling on my phone when I'm not working makes things worse plus being a mountain biker I'm not really giving my hands a break from being curled up haha. Below is how I have my extras buttons setup, which also reduces movement. It should be noted I use the Solidworks controls since that was what I was used to. Some of my coworkers prefer the Onshape default since it uses different fingers and they find it easier on their hands.

william_lacey · January 3

I'm currently using the Razer Naga V2 Hyperspeed mouse. It's an MMO mouse with a 12-key thumb pad that I've programmed to have my enter key, backspace, delete and all of the orthographic views (i.e. front, left, right, etc.). There is also a "switch" button that turns my thumb pad into a number pad so I can enter dimensions and such without using the keyboard.

martin_kopplow · January 3

@euan_dykes Oh yes, I can relate to your observations. As a full time CAD user for 30yrs+, I've also tried and rocked down quite a few mice: The standard ones, the apple ones, those with trackball or -pad and the fancy-buttoned ones. The worst time was when I had no choice but to use a company provided super fancy 100-button-CAD mouse and the small Apple keyboard without the number pad. My hand and arm hurt.

After going trough the loop, I finally came back to basics, but this time, having learned the hard way, more carefully chosen.

I want a wired mouse, for I hate caring for batteries, and they're more lightweight, too.
I tend to accidentally click on all the fancy buttons, so I like a clean mouse.
Because of the resolution on all surfaces I chose a laser mouse.
To help with that, I use a super thin self-adhesive 3M mousepad (costs more than a mouse, but good).
Because of the click-and-hold index finger strain I chose one with higher klickforce, so I can rest my finger on the button without accidentally clicking anything.
Because most of the strain comes from holding up the palm, it had to be one with a palm rest at the right position (I have large hands), but only at the right position. I don't like my hand getting sweaty due to overly large plastic contact surface.
So I found the Dell Laser Mouse MS3220 and that's it. It was more expensive back then, but I stocked up on them - you never kow! Today, they're still around at half the price. ;0)
I use a Spacemouse to complement it.
The SpaceMouse is a wired one, too, and the most basic model at that, without many buttons (has 2 of them) I think it is called the 3DX Space Navigator. I've had this for many years already, there is a new model out now.
I never use keyboards without a number pad, even my laptop has one.

The above might appear a bit like the poor man's CAD equipment, though it has turned out to be the most durable, reliable, hassle free and productive setup for me, and I didn't suffer any more overuse issues for a decade or so.

My worst experience, when it comes to CAD overuse and muscle strain issues, was demoing gesture controlled CAD in front of an 80" screen at an exhibition for a week. So, be warned and stay away from such ideas: These things do only work in SciFi movies. ;0)

MDesign · January 3

Your forearm and wrist muscles/tendons will thank you later. Been using this one for years for design work. Need to get one for my home office yet. Key for me was finding this angle more relaxed position and a middle wheel click pressure that wasn't to strong or light. Might be other models that work well too but this is the only one I tried and it worked…. for the most part other than not reversing the damage already done. ha. has all the

I tried a thumb track ball. didn't take long for thumb to bother me and it was severely slower for whatever reason. it had a slight tilt to the palm as well but it wasn't enough.

Want to find a neutral position for your forearm? sit at desk in whatever position you normally do with hand at mouse area rotate your hand about your forearm axis as far as you can. note how far. now rotate opposite direction and note that position. (total angle roughly 180°) now somewhere near the mid point of that (about 90° from either end range) is going be a sweet spot for relaxing those pronator teres muscles to allow the finger flexors to work better.

euan_dykes · January 3

https://forum.onshape.com/discussion/comment/111618#Comment_111618

I think I had the first generation of this mouse. Or what I referred to as a "Gaming Mouse" in my post. I liked elements of it. It was heavy and caring for batteries and a dongle hogging a USB slot on the laptop. Had one of the best scroll actions.

euan_dykes · January 3

I did have something really similar to this mouse as my "Ergonomic Mouse". I must admit it does help with the wrist movement vs the palm down type mouse.

GregBrown · January 3

I second @Rhett_Robinson 's vote for the MX Master 3. I've used, ummm, a lot of mice over the years: from tiny travel size ones (I have done a ton of work on the road and on the armrests of coach-class plane seats), wired, wireless, MagicMouse, trackball, pen (Wacom), and even homemade….

But the current one I use (MX Master 3) in conjunction with a SpaceMouse is the best setup I've used. It is the right combo of the ergonomics, weight, mouse button "action", enough programmability and long battery life. I've done a lot of customization to Onshape keyboard shortcuts to cluster them on the left side of the keyboard so I don't have to let go of the mouse very often.

MichaelPascoe · January 3

Not a huge fan of the mouse now that we have better tech, but since Onshape doesn't yet offer browser touch / pen support or spatial computing (Apple Vision / MetaQuest / etc..), we will have to use old faithful mouse and keyboard.

imo, CAD mouse / mice? are too heavy and slow down movement; but realistically, how fast do you need to be? I've tried the 3D Connexion Mouse. Also was really into some of Wacom's tablets for a time.

Here is what I'm using now, once you use it, it's hard to go back to anything else.

Logitech G PRO X Superlight 2

888+ IPS, up to 44,000 DPI (Extremely fast and low latency)
Weight (Ultra light weight, helps for accurate movements)
Grip (Allows you to grip from any angle quickly instead of forcing a specific direction on your wrist)
Battery life (I charge it about once a month for an hour)

Also, there is no use in having a fast and responsive mouse if your monitor doesn't support it. I recommend something with refresh rate equal to or higher than 144hz and response time lower than 2ms. Yes, I know, this is CAD not gaming, but it's the same thing as far as tech and interface goes; moving 3d objects around and clicking buttons.

_anton · January 3

^ Same here, it's nice. Hardly feels like you're holding a mouse. 62 grams, I think?

MichaelPascoe · January 3

I stumbled into ownership by accident. Never would have tried it but it came with a laptop a while back. Apparently it's "The Mouse" for gaming. Crazy the difference.

MichaelPascoe · January 3

Still excited for CAD with spatial computing someday. #no_mouse

Rhett_Robinson · January 3

https://forum.onshape.com/discussion/comment/111652#Comment_111652

I think the charge on my mouse lasts more than a month, I actually don't remember the last time I had to charge it though. It usually charges up quick too, and I just use it as a wired mouse when I do need it charged. The scroll action is one of my favorites, I have it so that it ratchet clicks on the slow scroll but can freewheel for the times I need to scroll up and down my design notes.

Rhett_Robinson · January 3

https://forum.onshape.com/discussion/comment/111654#Comment_111654

If only having the same mouse as you meant I had the same intellect haha.

S1mon · January 3

I know I've mentioned it elsewhere, but I would also vote for the Logitech MX Master 3S. I also recently bought the wireless version of the 3DConnexion SpaceMouse, which I recommend.

euan_dykes · January 3

My current weapon of choice. It's a good all rounder. Scrolling by twisting the ball, sounds cool on paper, in reality it's naff in practice. And it has audio index clicking as you twist the ball. So not co-worker friendly. Would be better to have a scroll wheel on the side.

If I could build the perfect user input device it would borrow the best from:

The primary click from a joystick like this. Nothing beats a good mechanical switch with haptic feedback. When your finger is relaxed it's away from the button so reduces accidental clicking.

The curse movement from this mouse. This was my first finger trackball mouse. And it can be modified to have different balls the big ball rolls on. I did this mod and it made it the best trackball so far. BTW: The side thumb clicking is the default, that I didn't like at first so I programmed the R and Fn3 buttons as the left and right respectively. Now that I've gotten use to the thumb movement, the default button isn't so bad after all. In some apps this mouse seemed to have a 3D rotation. Was in some pre print software. No idea how that happened.

The scroll action and back and forward buttons from this mouse.

That's how it will look. 😂

The_Techy · January 3

Possibly an unpopular opinion, but I like using a trackpad, although I do also have a Razer Basilisk V3 which is nice.

MichaelPascoe · January 4

Here is my primary:

martin_kopplow · January 5

https://forum.onshape.com/discussion/comment/111664#Comment_111664

As I already wrote: I tried that for a few days and man did it hurt! Maybe if you're after a real good full body workout, but I'd rather go hammering stones in some quarry than do it again. Doing CAD this way regularily is HEAVY WORK and it'll have more impact on users muscles and bones than any pointing device yet conceived. It gives the machine complete inverse control of the users body. You can't even pick your nose or have a mug of tea while doing it. For me, it is by no means an alternative to the current setup. I have no clue why people like it so much and it always remembers me of this iconic scene from Fritz Langs Metropolis movie of 1927. He knew it 100 years ago.

https://youtu.be/gdtZv3XROnc?t=57

kees_bijker · January 5

I was recently searching for a real cad mouse or a space mouse. But I refuse to go back to windows and will stay with linux BUT, the 3dconnexion space and cad mouse do not work for linux in combination with onshape. Something to do with the way onshape gets its instructions via the browser.

Then I came accross the logitech Mx ergo s, a trackball with 8 buttons of which several are programmable, or so they promise. Again they do not cater for linux and the other things available to program this device did not work for me so I am now using it as a standard track bal mouse with a few more buttons. On the plus it is with a magnetic base plate that you can put on a different angle so the mouse stands a little bit more upright. About 20 degrees. It really does help with the strain in your wrist. But I would really like to have more functions programmable in this trackball. I tried solaar but it does not connect and the advanced instructions go instantly in top level jargon mode so I am a bit stuck with it now. But works fine and no strain on my wrist.

https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-s-wireless-trackball-mouse.html

GWS50 · January 5

MX Master 3 for me!

It's comfortable, stops my wrist from aching and has just enough buttons to be useful and not get in the way.

eno_z883 · January 5

I’ve gone down this rabbit hole before and I think I’ve found the perfect mouse model so far from a Japanese brand (since 6 months ago): Elecom EX-G Ergonomic Mouse. These are the reasons I still use it today:

The angle is a mix of fully vertical and regular horizontal mouse (more like 45 deg) so it’s less twisting for the wrist like a vertical mouse but has better control and accuracy like a regular horizontal mouse
The shape is sculpted to fit a human hand - less simple and smooth shapes like a Logitech and more complex curves that follow fingers and palm location
Comes in 4 different sizes - no other mouse I know of has the same model/shape in that many sizes. Massive advantage to get the right fit and comfort for any hand size
Other nice to haves: multiple versions and colors available like a Bluetooth/dongle/wired version for the same model, all buttons are fairly quiet and easy to press, back/forward buttons. It doesn’t have a free scrolling wheel and the software you need to install isn’t super polished but the pros outweigh the cons IMO

I have one wired version at home, one at the office and a Bluetooth one to keep in my bag and haven’t missed my older Logitech mice one bit. Notable mention also, they’re pretty inexpensive and there’s a left handed version too.

euan_dykes · January 8

https://forum.onshape.com/discussion/comment/111665#Comment_111665

Yer, the battery life was quite good if I recall. It just when you need to travel with it or do live CAD sessions, the battery is a liability. That's why I gravitated towards anything with a cable. I don't have it anymore. Didn't it have two AA batteries, but you could run it with just a single battery to keep the weight down?

Rhett_Robinson · January 8

@euan_dykes mine is rechargeable only, and since you can use it while it is charging via usb-c it can act as a wired mouse if you are really worried about it.