Onshape for frame design, workflow to adopt?

adam_mercier

Hello all,
I'm developping freeride electric bikes frames for a business and while I currentely use Solid Edge ST6 Onshape looks like a very good option for reducing costs! I have been tesing it for a few hours and so far I'm impressed by the 2.5D modelling ability, and totally forgot it was running in browser!



I'm waiting like everyone to see how the drawing module will do.

But now I'm wondering if Onshape would be adequate for some basic frame modelling ?

Thats for exemple what I have been working on in ST6 :


Same thing IRL : 




Has anyone here exemples of frame modelling workflow using Onshape?
Best regards, Adam
LMX bikes

andrew_troup

No, sorry to say, I don't yet have anything closely applicable. However if I had to model something like this, I think I would be modelling solid shapes whose edges represented the centrelines of the frame tubes. That's the simplest way to achieve 3D splines at present, along which you can sweep the profiles.

Naturally you would model one side only (ie the solid shapes would start on the "Right" construction plane, and extend in only one direction), and then Mirror.

I think this would be OK for "putting a toe in the water", and there's something to be said for being (occasionally!) forced to use a simple but powerful toolset, in terms of getting a more solid understanding of solid geometry, and making better models even when higher-level tools are an option.

However, once Onshape has proper 3D sketching, including things like "spline on surface" and fillets between 3D splines, I'm fairly confident it will hold its own against the established modellers.

brucebartlett

I'd the complete frame in the part studio.

This ideally needs a 3d sketcher. The only options you've got without the 3d sketcher is to build heaps of 2d sketches with planes or use surface or solid body edges to sweep along but hard to get true radius's on the corners. 

BTW great job on the bike. 

adam_mercier

Thanks guys that was exactly the kind of advice I needed!
Body edge sweept seems like a viable option, I need to test more in depht to see if it is right for me. For my use speed is more important than accuracy of the modelling, as I often need to try a lot of different ideas. I'll report back here my thougths after some tests.

adam_mercier

Ok I tried it and it seems pretty similar if not better than what I was doing in ST6


Now only waiting for Drawing module to switch

andrew_troup

That's a sweet looking model. 

3dcad

@adam_mercier  Please provide us some specs or link of that end product, looks very interesting.. 

adam_mercier

Thanks! Here you will find some info  
www.lmxbikes.com
We are ramping production on the tubes frames while developping a new model with pedals (pre-production model in tests now).



Any plans for some advanced rendering options in Onshape?

Best regards,
Adam

LMX Bikes

michał_1

Awsome bikes.
For rendering check Lagoa, it's a render in a cloud with very similar approach to Onshape. Free account with 100 GB of storage space, up to 10 documents, project managment same as in Onshape, you can invite other users and work on a same file (scene) at the same time.
Best for Onshape users is that you can export STEP file (entite assembly) from OnS, and import to Lagoa. Unlimited render time, with free version up to 3 simultaneous renders. I was able to take picture in a size of 12800x7200 px, and I didn't check any further. Nice sets of materials, lot of settings...

nav

Just getting a little bit of topic +n votes to @michael_11, for suggesting Lagoa for rendering online I didn't know the tool it works great. Thanks.

3dcad

About rendering, take a look at Onshape tech partners - I think we are allowed to assume something is coming up. I'm mostly interested in Keyshot since I've been using it for years and like it very much.

adam_mercier

Thanks michael_11!
I actually researched this soft before but completely forgot about it for a while... time to test the thing now I guess!
I have never used Keyshot but heard only good things about it so far, so it would be interesting to have a render module in OS based on their tech...

adam_mercier

I tried LAGOA wich seems to be very adequate for my basic needs:
Definitely something I could use in the future! Now my free and cloud based workflow is taking shape!

raino_paananen

@adam_mercier
Really cool products and concepts 

Raino

christopher_owens

I have started using LAGOA also. Just beginning to learn that too! I wanted to add a comment here because I like the bicycle frame designing use of Onshape!

juan_aviles

I'm also interested in a better way to work with tube.  I'm used to 3D sketches in Solidworks, but I'm having a hard time doing this with OnShape (still a very new user...please forgive my ignorance).  I can do what I want with sketches, but I didn't see a need to use all the planes that @brucebartlett used above.  I'm hoping there is a better way to accomplish this though since I will be using tube work pretty extensively.

  

pete_yodis

juan_aviles said:

I'm also interested in a better way to work with tube.  I'm used to 3D sketches in Solidworks, but I'm having a hard time doing this with OnShape (still a very new user...please forgive my ignorance).  I can do what I want with sketches, but I didn't see a need to use all the planes that @brucebartlett used above.  I'm hoping there is a better way to accomplish this though since I will be using tube work pretty extensively.

  

@juan_aviles I would consider waiting until there is a 3D sketcher in Onshape if you plan on doing a lot of these types of geometry on a regular basis.  The methods discussed here are really workarounds to get things done if you need it.  Maybe others will disagree, but if I had to do a lot of these - I would consider waiting.

juan_aviles

@pete_yodis I'll keep working it this way until the 3D sketcher comes along. It's actually the way I used to work with tube chassis' in Solidworks quite a few years ago.  I don't want to stop using Onshape just because of this small hiccup, and maybe I'll learn a few new things along the way.

andy_morris

I've added a ticket for the 3D Sketch improvement, which will make this a more productive workflow.

In the meantime, you can use the workflows described above. Remember that a path does for a sweep does not have to be from a single sketch, you can use a mixture of contiguous entities from multiple sketches as well as model edges.

I used this approach for my motorcycle project, which you'll find in public documents.

dave_odle

pete_yodis said:

juan_aviles said:

I'm also interested in a better way to work with tube.  I'm used to 3D sketches in Solidworks, but I'm having a hard time doing this with OnShape (still a very new user...please forgive my ignorance).  I can do what I want with sketches, but I didn't see a need to use all the planes that @brucebartlett used above.  I'm hoping there is a better way to accomplish this though since I will be using tube work pretty extensively.

  

@juan_aviles I would consider waiting until there is a 3D sketcher in Onshape if you plan on doing a lot of these types of geometry on a regular basis.  The methods discussed here are really workarounds to get things done if you need it.  Maybe others will disagree, but if I had to do a lot of these - I would consider waiting.

PETE I CAME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT MIGHT WORK AND POSTED A PUBLIC DOCUMENT. FIND IT BY SEARCHING SPLINE HELP ON THE MAIN CAD PAGE

seth_rosko

Are there any plans to integrate commonly used shapes (like tubing) into a specific or stand alone tool? The current methodology to create then sweep/ extrude a profile or roll a shape seem like clumsy work arounds for a structure so common. Any time saving alternatives would be well received! 

3dcad

I would prefer to begin with 3d sketching tool before creating specific tools for certain segment..

But 3d sketcher together with general common sketch shapes would have many use cases in various areas.

philip_thomas

This is a great discussion and yes, we have a long way to go (starting with 3D Sketches).

That said, our users ARE creating complex frames with the tools as they exist today.
Here is a public document created by Kyriakos Tryfonidis (Lamborghini Diablo space frame)



https://cad.onshape.com/documents/db0187cc2611449cb3c4b475/w/f59e5c59778e4dc8884320c9

robert_morris

Where can I vote for 3d sketches?

The only thing I could find in the improvements section was this: https://onshape.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/206585867-3D-sketches-and-curves which says that it is already implemented.

It would be nice to not have to revert back to SolidWorks to use 3d splines.

philip_thomas

To participate in the enhancement request voting - start here - https://forum.onshape.com/categories/improvement-requests

robert_morris

@philip_thomas The only request for 3D Sketching that I could find is this one: https://forum.onshape.com/discussion/1708/3d-sketches-and-curves-implemented.

That says that it was "Implemented on December 02, 2015 10:45 in rel-1.39"

Am I missing something?

philip_thomas

Robert  - step 1 is to search to see if the improvement you want isn't already there (and therefore split the votes that would otherwise hasten the arrival of your desired functionality).
If it's not already there, step 2 is to create a 'new improvement' - here is the button to do that . . . 



We suggest describing the desired functionality very clearly in the title so that others can also find it and vote on it.

Thank you for your support of Onshape

robert_morris

Yes, I am aware of those steps.

Please take a look at the links that I put in my last two posts.
They clearly state that 3D Sketching has already been implemented and marked as Closed.

My question is - has it actually been implemented or is this wrong?

_Ðave_

@robert_morris  If that is what it says then it must be an error because 3d sketching isn't implemented. 

philip_thomas

(investigating)

adam_mercier

Some update on the frame and product design on onshape, and thoughts :

 I managed to recreate the full bike in onshape, the process was quite straightforward BUT something that is really missing for me is the ability to derivate parts positions from an assembly to a part studio. I can modify the base shape and the full frame follows OK. Using booleans to make tube cutouts is very efficient to pass on files and drawings for manufacturing.
I had to use move face trick a few times to simulate sheet metal parts but its far from ideal.

Conclusion, for this kind of project 3d sketching is not 100% needed but would make thins faster and more straightforward.
Adam