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To Hold or Not Hold Control...

Don_Van_ZileDon_Van_Zile Member Posts: 195 PRO

I would like to start a discussion on what others see themselves doing... or maybe it's just me.

When selecting multiple entities in almost any other software let alone cad software the Control key acted as the "and" modifier to select multiple items/entities; the same holds true for Windows files etc... In other words, I'm programmed mentally and with muscle memory to immediately go for the Control key for multiple selection.

Now with Onshape, they flipped this paradigm upside-down in that it automatically is always in the multiple selection mode without the press-and-hold of the Control key; what the...? They can't do that, but they did! ;) Now if I were a betting man, I would guess the UX team decided that for "Mobile" the use of the press-and-hold of a Control key would be justifiably awkward and go against typical mobile UX behaviors so this was changed across the platform entirely. I disagree with this change even though it makes perfect sense for mobile without the option given when using the desktop.

That being said, I find myself still hitting the Control key very often and having to force myself and remember that it's different when using Onshape. I find myself doing this Control key dance a few times a day, but simply moving on while a bit frustrated (I still have to use other systems regardless of what Onshape does and even other programs where this is just hardwired).

Anyways... My point is that most Onshape users will typically not be using mobile devices to full-time design as the 80/20 (or even close to a 95/5) rule in my opinion; not for a few more years at least. Can we have a system option to keep the Control as the "and" selection modifier please.



Others?

Comments

  • konstantin_shiriazdanovkonstantin_shiriazdanov Member Posts: 901 ✭✭✭✭✭
    At least in NX entity selection works the same way - you just clicking to select multiple entities, and I find it handy.
  • Jake_RosenfeldJake_Rosenfeld Moderator, Onshape Employees, Developers Posts: 1,295
    @Don_Van_Zile

    This has less to do with mobile than you expect.  Imagine you are selecting sketch regions into an extrude.  If you must hold ctrl to select multiple items into the list, that is something you will probably be holding down all the time.  Imagine that you forget to hold control and then click on another region you want to add and the system clears your entire selection and replaces it with that one selection.  Now all your carefully picked selections are gone, and you have to start all over again.

    We decided that this was useful behavior across the whole system, because the frustration of having to manually clear your selection with space bar or double clicking in free space is far less than the frustration of accidentally clicking something without ctrl held down, and having to start over from scratch.
    Jake Rosenfeld - Modeling Team
  • Don_Van_ZileDon_Van_Zile Member Posts: 195 PRO
    At least in NX entity selection works the same way - you just clicking to select multiple entities, and I find it handy.
    So their UX copied NX (I knew NX was also ahead of it's time) ;) I think it's handy too, but I use different software everyday; at least for now. If I could change all of the others to this behavior I suppose I would, but I can't and this one's the odd-man out.
  • Jake_RosenfeldJake_Rosenfeld Moderator, Onshape Employees, Developers Posts: 1,295
    @Don_Van_Zile

    But that's not to say that your request isn't a good one! A user option may be a good way to address this.  Please make an improvement request.
    Jake Rosenfeld - Modeling Team
  • Don_Van_ZileDon_Van_Zile Member Posts: 195 PRO
    edited August 2018
    @Don_Van_Zile

    We decided that this was useful behavior across the whole system, because the frustration of having to manually clear your selection with space bar or double clicking in free space is far less than the frustration of accidentally clicking something without ctrl held down, and having to start over from scratch.
    I 100% agree with the above caveat with mis-selection canceling the carefully picked items. I always wished there as a "Selection set" undo specifically for these CAD scenarios and why some users request to actually save a selection as well for other workflows. Even with the sketch contour selection it doesn't seem as intuitive as I would like at least in my scenarios so I end up having to get rid of items that were added that I didn't want selected (different post maybe).

    Thanks for the input Jake. I'm just venting because I do find myself mis-selecting now because I have to stop holding the Control key down now and just... Let it go!


  • robert_morrisrobert_morris OS Professional, Developers Posts: 155 PRO
    This took a little bit to get used to when I first started Onshape. Now that I've been using it for a while, I prefer it to work this way, and the only time I get frustrated is if I have to go back and use SW. Of course using SW tends to frustrate me anyway, so there's nothing new there...
  • Don_Van_ZileDon_Van_Zile Member Posts: 195 PRO
    edited August 2018
    @Jake_Rosenfeld

    Here's been a typical selection frustration while working with sketches.

    I'll have a master sketch drawn on one of the primary planes, but be sketching on geometry from a created part.


    I think it will default to the sketch region, but it thinks I want a surface:


    Switch to "Solid" and the selection disappears. Is this a bug or by design?


    Make what I think is the right selection again.


    Zoom way out only to see that it selected the entire face.

    I have to use Select other to really get what I want eventually with this example.

    This issue is of course entirely different, but as you can see selection plays such a strong part of daily (all day for some) CAD workflow and a persons perception of what they want verses what the system defaults to without any flexibility or other options.

    I can eventually see a need for a Selection Filter for Sketches/Sketch regions. What is an intuitive default for one person may not be for another or specific workflow. Trying to nail down the 80/20 rule ends up giving somebody the 20% percent or less spectrum, daily.
  • Jake_RosenfeldJake_Rosenfeld Moderator, Onshape Employees, Developers Posts: 1,295
    @Don_Van_Zile

    It looks like that circle is a construction circle anyway, which will not designate a selection region.  I find that sketch selection becomes very complicated when you sketch on another sketch.  If sketch 37 and 38 are better viewed together, could they be constructed as one sketch?  If not, maybe hide sketch 37 before you start sketching, and make sketch 38 directly on the default plane or the part in question instead.  I think you'll find that if you don't layer sketches on top of each other that selection will become somewhat easier.
    Jake Rosenfeld - Modeling Team
  • lanalana Onshape Employees Posts: 466
    @Don_Van_Zile
    Please notice that you have two sketches one on top of the other: In first case you've selected Edge of Sketch 36, in second - Face of Sketch 37. I can't think of a way to resolve such graphics selection without use of select other. Have you tried selecting sketch feature from the feature tree or starting extrude from sketch tool bar? That gives you our sketch region selection, which seems do what users want most of the times.
  • Don_Van_ZileDon_Van_Zile Member Posts: 195 PRO
    edited August 2018
    @Don_Van_Zile

    It looks like that circle is a construction circle anyway, which will not designate a selection region.  I find that sketch selection becomes very complicated when you sketch on another sketch.
    Ignore those other Sketches (37 & 38)  as they were empty sketches apparently making those screen shots which I'm surprised you can do.

    And that circle (sketch 36) is just a regular circle to present the issue with a potential Master Sketch and not construction which I thought too.

  • Jake_RosenfeldJake_Rosenfeld Moderator, Onshape Employees, Developers Posts: 1,295
    @Don_Van_Zile

    I can't really tell what's going on there, definitely doesn't look correct to me.  Can you reproduce this as a simple case in a public doc and share here?  If not, feel free to contact support with the "feedback" tool in the "?" menu and we can take a look.
    Jake Rosenfeld - Modeling Team
  • lanalana Onshape Employees Posts: 466
    edited August 2018
    That is not a construction geometry, we render "hidden line" sketches this way. That sketch is obstructed by something else in graphics.
    @Don_Van_Zile Could you share this model, so that we could figure it out?
  • Don_Van_ZileDon_Van_Zile Member Posts: 195 PRO
    edited August 2018



    https://cad.onshape.com/documents/f7828b08d10c114f3e45c41d/w/61d88541637e88f92ee758d3/e/333cfcacc41e56f677ae21f5

    I should note that the "Select Other" tool gives rather disappointing visual feedback.  :/

    Also, is the ability to make Empty Sketches by design?

  • lanalana Onshape Employees Posts: 466
    Thank you for sharing, so the sketch is indeed being seen through the solid - that mystery is solved. For Surface extrude we are filtering out faces, so you can select edge through the solid faces, for solid extrude face selection is allowed, so face of the solid is picked first. As you proposed, adding a manual sketch object filter could improve  experience here. While that is not available, hiding the solid part while making selection for extrude might be easier then using select Other.
  • Don_Van_ZileDon_Van_Zile Member Posts: 195 PRO
    edited August 2018
    lana said:
    Thank you for sharing, so the sketch is indeed being seen through the solid - that mystery is solved. For Surface extrude we are filtering out faces, so you can select edge through the solid faces, for solid extrude face selection is allowed, so face of the solid is picked first. As you proposed, adding a manual sketch object filter could improve  experience here. While that is not available, hiding the solid part while making selection for extrude might be easier then using select Other.
    Thanks for the assistance, feedback and current workflow tip for the win! @lana I have to admit I was "sort of" playing dumb for the sake argument, but for a good cause. ;)


  • lanalana Onshape Employees Posts: 466
    Thank you. It all helps.
  • MBartlett21MBartlett21 Member Posts: 1,572 EDU
    @Don_Van_Zile
    I have used empty sketches a bit on faces with a hole (can now select the hole to extrude
    MB - I make FeatureScripts: view FS (My FS's have "Official" beside them)
  • owen_sparksowen_sparks Member, Developers Posts: 2,281 PRO
    edited August 2018
    Hi folks, another great topic, allow me to throw my thoughts into the mix and broaden the scope, as OS are shaking things up a bit:-

    (1) Control Click
    Weird at first but now like it and wish other software did the same.
    Possibly makes sense to not make it consistent :p Set the behaviour to minimise clicks, so in CAD multiple selections are common, so no control reqd.

    (2) Single click vs double click to activate files.
    New territory for me, used to single click for hyperlinks for web stuff but OS feels like desktop software (especially if you hit F11) so was expecting file explorer / desktop like double click behaviour.  Don't have a strong enough opinion either way, happy to do whatever OS feel the norm will be in 5 years.

    (3) Never saving
    No debate, OS have nailed this one, catch up the rest of you already...

    (4) Mouse behaviour.
    I use a lot of software and the behaviour is different for all of them (pan, tilt etc.)  This drives me nuts.
    Most don't allow you to configure settings individually, only "like solidworks", "like creo" if there are any settings at all.
    Initially the only way I could get consistent behaviour was to set them all "like solidworks".  guess what, I don't, nor have I ever, used SW, and isn't that a bit embarrassing anyway?

    Fortunately using a 3dconnexion device fixed that. 

    Anyone else got anything they like/dislike wish could be reinvented form a clean sheet of paper?

    Cheers,
    Owen S.
    Production Engineer
    HWM-Water Ltd
  • konstantin_shiriazdanovkonstantin_shiriazdanov Member Posts: 901 ✭✭✭✭✭
    (4) Mouse behaviour.
    I use a lot of software and the behaviour is different for all of them (pan, tilt etc.)  This drives me nuts.
    Most don't allow you to configure settings individually, only "like solidworks", "like creo" if there are any settings at all.
    Initially the only way I could get consistent behaviour was to set them all "like solidworks".  guess what, I don't, nor have I ever, used SW, and isn't that a bit embarrassing anyway?
    Among other CADs as SW, Inventor, Fusion 360 and NX I find Onshape moove/zoom/rotate the most handy, especially right click and drag for mooving the scene. In OS you can work with a single hand or even operating with touchpad of your notebook lying on the sofa.
  • brucebartlettbrucebartlett Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 1,854 PRO
    (4) Mouse behaviour.
    I use a lot of software and the behaviour is different for all of them (pan, tilt etc.)  This drives me nuts.
    Most don't allow you to configure settings individually, only "like solidworks", "like creo" if there are any settings at all.
    Initially the only way I could get consistent behaviour was to set them all "like solidworks".  guess what, I don't, nor have I ever, used SW, and isn't that a bit embarrassing anyway?
    Among other CADs as SW, Inventor, Fusion 360 and NX I find Onshape moove/zoom/rotate the most handy, especially right click and drag for mooving the scene. In OS you can work with a single hand or even operating with touchpad of your notebook lying on the sofa.
    Agreed, I really like the Onshape mouse behavior as you can do more without having to touch the keyboard.  I hated that it was different to SW at first but half a day of use and it's mastered. 
    Engineer ı Product Designer ı Onshape Consulting Partner
    Twitter: @onshapetricks  & @babart1977   
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