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Two sketches not fully defined. Where is (are) the problem(s)?

gerald_comeaugerald_comeau Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
in General
I have sketched two rectangles to make the outline of plates to be used to attach beams together. The rectangles are not fully defined.  Each sketch is 1/2 of the plate. My plan is to extrude each sketch to a dept of 4mm, make holes through all for the bolts, then mirror each plate to get complete plates. ....can't extrude because the rectangles are not fully defined. I am clearly in over my head. 
I don't know if the technique I used to make the plates is faulty. Each line of the rectangle is made from 4 different sketches. I used this method because of the curve in the beam (the plates have to be in the right position for making holes through all). I have run into problems making the Normal Constraint, succeeding in only one instance; not understanding why it worked only once. I have also tried to use the Symmetric constraint without success. Is this because the lines of the rectangles are from different sketches.
I'd appreciate some help. I am attaching a link to the document. It's best to suppress the beam to get a clear view. 
https://cad.onshape.com/documents/0bbf27f22991a4360e0d803c/w/a75143c25ed83c5633f36f2c/e/a54ec3d189de45b50578c29f      

Best Answers

  • john_mcclaryjohn_mcclary Member, Developers Posts: 3,936 PRO
    edited July 2019 Answer ✓
    No, I don't have any experience in solar technology.

    I'm a custom machine designer for factory/warehouse equipment.

    The closest thing I've done with solar was handling the large glass panels during the handeling and packaging processes.

    But if you need a hand or anything more mechanical/structural or more CAD questions. I can help in those areas 
  • john_mcclaryjohn_mcclary Member, Developers Posts: 3,936 PRO
    Answer ✓
    Cool :)


    Yea, assemblies are not difficult at all. They are for placing parts and connecting them up. That's about it.

    Part Studios are where all the modeling happens. Yet so many people are intimidated by assemblies.

    Onshape makes the even easier than SW with thier mate connectors and group mate. Takes 1/3 of the effort.

    Definatly worth learning.
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Answers

  • philip_thomasphilip_thomas Member, Moderator, Onshape Employees, Developers Posts: 1,381
    Thank you John!!! :)
    Philip Thomas - Onshape
  • gerald_comeaugerald_comeau Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    @john mcclarry,  You've given me new tools to add to my limited tool kit.  I suspected I was trying to do the impossible by trying to close lines not from the same sketches. Now I know.
    There is something else. The two shapes, are not rectangles as I said in my post. The purple and yellow lines are arcs (angles) as you've observed. 
    I have not yet tried the solution by extruding a surface  (up to vertex) but am getting excited to try it out tomorrow (It's been a long day :smiley: ) I have come across some literature that mentions surface extrusion, but have no experience with it so far. Is there some special command in the extrude feature to use to thicken?    
    It took me a little while to get the sweep idea. I think I've got it.
    I'm sure you've noticed I made the inside plate and the outside plate at different angles. I thought it would be a good idea to have the outside plate longer so it could easily seen at a glance that the long plate belongs to the outside of the beam.
    Thank-you very much for laying this all out for me. 
  • gerald_comeaugerald_comeau Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    @john mcclary - I watched an onshape webinar made in 2017 on surfaces, before I found your last reply ...the instructor was well qualified but a little repetitious at times. I learned by watching it but was a little frazzled by the end of it  :)  Thanks for your guidance. I feel more confident now. 
  • gerald_comeaugerald_comeau Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    @philip_thomas Thanks for offering to help. There may come another occasion to help me. 
  • gerald_comeaugerald_comeau Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    edited June 2019
    @john_mcclary and anyone else who feels like pitching in:  I made the surfaces and thickened as you showed me. It worked out beautifully. Then I realized I'd forgotten (in my excitment, I guess  :) ) to show where the holes would be made through the plates and the beam in the middle. 

    I deleted the extrusions to get a better view, then made sketch points at one degree and 4 degrees on the inside plate. So far so good, but I have a question about placing the holes on the curved surface. Do I have to add (or remove) material to get a flat surface? The curve will be minute but still not a flat surface. I imagine this will require another sketch showing the location of the hole and the geometry to show the needed fill to make a flat surface. Is that right or can I get by without doing the additional work? Following from what I'm learning about surfacing, perhaps I can surface the new sketch and fill in the needed material ?? ..... What is the best suggestion?  

    Here is the link to the sketch showing the sketch points on the inside plate: 
    https://cad.onshape.com/documents/0bbf27f22991a4360e0d803c/w/a75143c25ed83c5633f36f2c/e/a54ec3d189de45b50578c29f
  • gerald_comeaugerald_comeau Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    @john_mcclary - wow!  ...am still scratching my head :) What did you do  :) ...just kidding. I saw what you did.  The challenge now is to do it myself. I'll have to take a deep breath. You know the old expression "the devil is in the details."  I know for sure I won't do in 7 or 8 minutes. 
    Thanks for the great video.   
  • gerald_comeaugerald_comeau Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    @john_mcclary - .....got the Pierce Constraints done. I was working on it yesterday but was all thumbs so put it aside. I'll work on the plates tomorrow. I'm wondering if it best to mirror the plates first then put the holes in (we only got as far as one end of the beam).
    I am not sure about this but when I put a hole on the first plate it will make the same hole in the mirrored plate, won't it? I guess I'll find out soon enough by trying it. Have a good week-end.
  • gerald_comeaugerald_comeau Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    edited June 2019
    Ah! I see. That's good to know. 
      
    There is circular pattern that comes into it too. The procedure I have in mind is. 

    1) make a circular pattern and place all 5 beams (72 degrees X 5), ie before mirroring. 

    2) mirror the plates at the tree, "with" holes in through all. Once the complete plate is in place, there will holes in the beams as well and it will make holes at both ends of the beams, right?

    3) make a circular pattern for the plates. (I am not sure how this works.)  Can both plates be circular patterned in one step or will it be two steps? If it is two steps, there will still be holes in the beam once I've placed all 5 inside plates in the circle, right? 

    I hope you can make out I'm trying to say. 
  • gerald_comeaugerald_comeau Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    @john_mcclary - Thanks for your good observations. I am not yet too good with terminology so it is helpful to have your analysis. Sometimes I have a sort of intuitive understanding but am missing the vocabulary. I have been giving your reply some thought but haven't attempted anything yet. I had some computer problems two days ago and it took me until now to get it all sorted out. I had to reset Windows 10.  Tomorrow is Canada Day and fireworks ....good time for modeling parts on Onshape. ...been raining heavy all day here in Meteghan, Nova Scotia.    
  • gerald_comeaugerald_comeau Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    @john_mcclary Hi John, ...had everything going great on Windows 10 yesterday but new problems surfaced. I'll have to get some help from the computer technician. I also  have Linux which I'm using now, but the graphics are too slow for Onshape on my computer as it stands now.  
  • john_mcclaryjohn_mcclary Member, Developers Posts: 3,936 PRO
    Good luck with your computer  :s
  • gerald_comeaugerald_comeau Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    edited July 2019
    @john_mcclary - Got the help needed and the computer is working. It was a problem with internet connections and I am no good when it comes to that.
    I've got something that looks like two plates in position. I could only get half the outside plate to show by using the sheet metal feature but found I could do a surface extrude to show the whole region. I used surface feature for both the inside and outside plates, then after that I used the sheet metal feature. I stopped there. I didn't want to attempt the holes until you had a look. What bothers me is that I see a strip on the inside plate that is the color of the beam. I don't know what that means but it doesn't look right. That's where I am now. I'd be grateful if you have a look.

  • gerald_comeaugerald_comeau Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    edited July 2019
    @john_mcclary Hi, The list of Features in my document is getting longer. There are 27 now ....maybe a few too many. Yesterday, I had trouble making the plates and experimented with the Surface option. I found 6 in the parts list this morning. I probably tried it 3 times and I doubt I needed them at all.  ....am doing a little too much fiddling around I think.
    This morning I made a circular pattern of the plates (inside and outside) and tried the hole feature without success. Watching your video again for help with the holes, your technique is far superior to mine. I made a plane and a sketch but am confused with the inputs. I believe I am getting the sketch points to place hole OK. I have been able to get an outline of the holes but going in the wrong direction. I am only able to get Beam in the merge scope. In your video It  the merge scope seemed fill automatically as the hole was being made, though you selected the beam for merge scope if I am not mistaken.
    Anyway, I just thought I'd add this comment to the one I made yesterday. I have an appointment which will tie me up most of the afternoon. 
    I don't like to leave aside something in the model which is unfinished and am not sure what to do now. Do you have any additional suggestions to the ones you've already made?
  • gerald_comeaugerald_comeau Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    @john_mcclary - I've watched your video. Your "mumbling" is very informative. I much prefer your method to mine. This exercise is a challenging one. I'm still digesting it and know I have to watch again (and again probably) before diving in. 
    I see much improved clarity in the graphics in your videos than I get while on Onshape with my computer. I put some but not all of the blame to that for the mistakes in my work. The Onshape compatibility test shows the blue gauge about 1/3 of the way to the top for my computer graphic speed. I have an old Hewlett Packard desktop which I hate to abandon but may have to. I'll explain the situation to my computer technician on Monday. Maybe a better graphics card than the one that's in it will give me what I need ....but maybe not.   
    You and I have some things in common. We both work on our respective holidays and both wake up still tired but I call it still sleepy.  :)  

  • gerald_comeaugerald_comeau Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    @john_mcclary You're right. I have to weigh my decisions carefully. I don't know exactly what to call what I'm doing but I want an adequate computer that will permit me to move towards potential. It's not a hobby and it's not a business. I have some time to put into this and maybe it will bear fruit. In the meantime, I'm willing to take it a bit further on this public forum. Once we get past the carousel you'll see a little more.  

    I've had a phone conversation with Maya Wilson and  am totally open to the two of you sharing information if you are interested in touching base with her. Once I gain a little more confidence I'll buy a subscription to Onshape.
      
    Climate change is what is motivating me. I hope I'm around long enough to see a prototype of what I have in mind.  
     
    I see a few innovation projects in CSP, especially in Europre. They are usually multi year and multi million $ projects funded through elaborate consortiums involving universities. This is what I don't want to involved in.    
  • gerald_comeaugerald_comeau Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    edited July 2019
    @john_mcclary I am sorry to be so mysterious. I have made a very rough illustration of "most" of the main parts  that are involved in the design of the solar concentration equipment that I have conceptualized. It shows serious innovations on equipment that has been developed until now. This is a start. I think it will become increasingly obvious that my concepts have potential in redefining the evolution of  concentrating solar power, if I may be so bold as to say so myself.
    John, you have been giving so much help in getting started, I feel I owe you more than I am able to give back. Also, I want to say that I am not doing this work in the pursuit of riches for myself. 
  • gerald_comeaugerald_comeau Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    @john_mcclary Thanks for your reply. If it becomes more work than pleasure I suppose I'll know it when a question goes unanswered :) .  

    There was some confusion at my end yesterday.  I had a message that I thought came from you. Maybe it was an old message that came up. It said that what I was trying to achieve was unclear.  That's why I send a rough sketch meant to illustrate the concept in the model you are helping me with. 

    I now have a question not specific to the model I am working to develop but relating to concentrating solar power technologies.  Have you some past experience or interest in CSP? If yes, that's great. For my part, I am happy to try to provide links to technical information or give you my personal broad brush assessments of the technology or the industry at your request. 

    I should be finished with the carousel sometime next week unless some big hitch comes up. Once that's done, I could start a sketch of the supports for the carousel. I chose a wide flange beam for the carousel because 3 horizontal surfaces are needed ....bottom, to support and drive the carousel; top, to support the structure involving the lens; inside bottom flange, a roller to hold down and protect the entire structure from damage from high winds.
    The carousel will rotate on rollers attached to arms supported by 4 posts. Among other things, the post system will be a way of cutting costs on site preparation ---especially on rough or uneven ground).  On one of the 4 posts there will be a driving wheel. There is also another crucial advantage to the choice of posts but that involves a more lengthy and involved explanation, which I am foregoing for the moment.  :)   
  • john_mcclaryjohn_mcclary Member, Developers Posts: 3,936 PRO
    edited July 2019 Answer ✓
    No, I don't have any experience in solar technology.

    I'm a custom machine designer for factory/warehouse equipment.

    The closest thing I've done with solar was handling the large glass panels during the handeling and packaging processes.

    But if you need a hand or anything more mechanical/structural or more CAD questions. I can help in those areas 
  • gerald_comeaugerald_comeau Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    ....perfect answer! 
  • gerald_comeaugerald_comeau Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    @john_mcclary - I've made some progress as you'll see in the link. I'm up to where you created a part studio. I couldn't quite follow what you did when you got there. I know I should have hidden the planes and sketches.  I'm just a novice and took the fundamentals course on working with Assembly. I'll have to review that to be able to finish this carousel project. 
    Last week i blamed lack of graphics speed on my computer for problems I had sketching and modeling but that wasn't the problem. I was using the wrong browser that day. I had it in the back of my mind that I was on Firefox instead of Google but did not have the presence of mind then to figure out the problem ...too focused on sketching and modeling. The difference in the two browsers is like day and night. I could not have done this work with Firefox. ...that's another big lesson learned. 
    Thanks again for getting me up to this point. 
    https://cad.onshape.com/documents/0bbf27f22991a4360e0d803c/w/a75143c25ed83c5633f36f2c/e/a54ec3d189de45b50578c29f  
  • gerald_comeaugerald_comeau Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    @john_mcclary - I meant to also tell you I could not do the inside plate using the arch on the center of the web. It just would not give me a good extrusion. I tried replacing the arc and that didn't help. I made another sketch to get an arc at the top of the 72mm and had success with that. 
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