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"Zoom to fit" Improvement

StephenGStephenG Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭
I searched the forum and didn't find anything that specifically mentioned this idea. Sorry if it is a redundant request.

I really like the fact that "Zoom to fit" has a keyboard short (f); I use it all the time. I recently discovered the RBM "Zoom to selection", which is even better, but it is cumbersome to get to being buried in the RMB menu. 

My idea is to change the behavior of "Zoom to fit" to be that of "Zoom to selection"; I see no reason to have two "Zoom to ..." windowing functions when a single one should be able do both.

The behavior of "Zoom to fit" with something selected should be to zoom and center the using the selected item(s) to determine the amount of zoom and pan.

The behavior of "Zoom to fit" with nothing selected should remain as it is now.

The special case behavior of having a single point type entity (point, vertex, mate connector) selected is to just pan to the thing to center of the display; no change in zoom.


 
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Comments

  • konstantin_shiriazdanovkonstantin_shiriazdanov Member Posts: 897 ✭✭✭✭✭
    +1, and Esc to clear selection
  • StephenGStephenG Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭
    I use the keyboard shortcut "Space Bar" to clear the selection. However, I also concur that hitting the "Esc" key should not only cancel any in-process command state, it should also clear the selection as well.  There should be a simple quick way to return to what I refer to as the active context "null" state with nothing selected. (Now if they only made more keyboards with large <Esc> keys with more separation from the other keys.) 

    I would also like to see the "Esc" behavior mapped to a single click of the Middle Mouse Button (MMB).   

    And while I am at it, the RMB context menu behavior should be tweaked to have the mouse pointer positioned on top of the the top most menu item; a user should not be required to move the mouse to choose what is the most  frequently used choice.  This makes it possible to effect the choice with a simple double click of the RMB. Once a user becomes familiar (commits to memory through repetitious use) what is the top most choice he will not have change his focus away from the geometry in order to move the mouse cursor over the most likely menu choice.  
  • john_mcclaryjohn_mcclary Member, Developers Posts: 1,851 PRO
    By the way,
    Double clicking the middle mouse button will zoom to fit as well, (normal behavior in most CAD software)
    Maybe holding shift while double MMB could be a shortcut for "Zoom to Selection"?

    By having ESC mapped to single click MMB may cause unintended consequences while attempting to double click MMB (if you don't click fast enough, you lose all of you selection, or exit a command, Or you press too hard while scrolling)

  • StephenGStephenG Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭
    "double clicking the middle mouse button"

    Do you know any more undocumented 3D viewing/keyboard tricks?

    One week into using Onshape I created 8.5x11 quick reference chart of the keyboard shortcuts & mouse behavior from screen shots of Onshape Help. I reorganized it to improve readability as a reference document. (Suitable for printing and framing, see attached). I added the Double Click MMB behavior to it.

    (I really need to replace the fuzzy screen shots with "real" inputted text from a word processor.)

    I think we are in agreement that "Zoom to selection" should be easier to effect, we only differ as to whether it should be the default behavior for the "f" keyboard shortcut and the MMB double click. I like the idea of a <Shift> Single Click MMB instead of a Double Click MMB. A Double Click MMB action is really difficult to effect on the mouse I use. 

    I use a MS Mobile Mouse 4000 (Blue Laser) mouse; it doesn't play well with any application that uses the MMB because the action is stiffer compared to the left and right MBs. The MMB is also wobbly because it has a scroll Left/Right behavior to it as well as the scrolling function. I bought it for the blue laser improved surface sensing capability. Poor ergonomic button design. 


  • john_mcclaryjohn_mcclary Member, Developers Posts: 1,851 PRO
    I would still prefer double click even so. My MMB is very stiff but it something that I have gotten used to with other CAD programs, and it should be intuitive to people making the switch over as well.
    That and the [<shift> Double MMB] would be more at home next to [Double MMB] as you will only need to remember to add shift to slightly change the function of double MMB, rather than <shift>MMB, which requires you to remember two separate actions for the similar function.

    In my mind it's like saying, press W to walk, press shift Z to run
    Would it not make more sense to say Press W to walk, press shift W to run?

    I can't think of any more undocumented short-cuts off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are a couple more.
    BTW your pdf says RMB double click, instead of MMB :)

    As for default behavior. I would say zoom to fit would be the more appropriate. Zoom to selection is pretty specific.
    More often than not I zoom in to select something, then double MMB to see everything, then go find another piece to select.
    Zoom to selection seems more like something you would use After you have all of your selections, and are wanting to start doing something with them.
    Only time I use it is when I'm trying to locate a part that got buried in the middle of an assembly or something. But that's just me probably..
  • StephenGStephenG Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭
    Changed the RMB typo to MMB for "Fit to Zoom: MMB Double Click"

    Attached corrected PDF. (Now I am embarrassed about the image quality in the PDF. I am close to being shamed into rendering the PDF from a real Word doc to make the text readable.)  

    I still prefer my original concept to combine the "Zoom to fit" and "Zoom to selection" into a single innovation method; the zoom behavior being dependent on the geometry selected, or none selected. It's simpler, no secondary key to depress (What key do I depress the  <Shift>, <Ctrl>, or <Alt>?) To me this seems easier and more natural behavior; it is a subjective preference at this point.

    Just so we do not loose sight of the forest by focusing in on a single leaf, let's not forget the reason for the all zooming, panning, 3D rotation activity is mostly related to making a correct unambiguous selection possible. None of this windowing activity adds values to the modeling process; it is something we have to suffer because the process of selecting what we want, more or less dictates it. I would love to see more attention given to improving the selection process so that the number of windowing operations can be reduced. (Reduced windowing always translates into productivity gain.) For example, I would love to see more attention given to simplifying the process for selecting a specific edge/face/vertex/(3D center point/center line when they are implemented) from a tangled mess of graphics on the screen without have to resort to zooming in to where you lose visual context and then have to zoom out again. (Maybe a keyboard shortcut that restores "Last Zoom" is in order.) I am aware of RMB "Select other...", but I find it awkward to use; invoking it and cycling through the possibles for selection is cumbersome. A few small changes would significantly improve its usefulness, but that is a subject for another discussion thread.    

    I would like to hear arguments from others for changing, or not changing the behavior of "Zoom to fit". 
  • StephenGStephenG Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Addressed the image quality of the Onshape Keyboard Shortcuts document I created from screen captures. Created a MS Word equivalent with a PDF for anyone who wants. I did reword some of the shortcut descriptions to clarify what it does.  
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,380 PRO
    What if you wan't to select multiple small details in big model. You zoom in, select first instance, hit FIT to get quickly out, zoom into next.. you got the point

    I have used Onshape for roughly two years now, it's part of my everyday work (and hobby) - I would hate to see them changing something I have learned and built muscle memory (like esc, space, fit, etc.. basic functions)
    //rami
  • john_mcclaryjohn_mcclary Member, Developers Posts: 1,851 PRO
    @3dcad
    I agree, I don't want change the default behavior. But adding shift to double MMB won't affect anyone, only speed things up when your trying to zoom to selection.

    Were talking something so minor as two button presses vrs 2 clicks. It's not a life changer. But I love me some short-cuts :)

    What we really should be pushing for is customizable short cuts. Which OS is apparently thinking about anyways.. 
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,380 PRO
    @john_mcclary
    If I remember correctly, you have gazillion programmable buttons on your mouse? I use configurable buttons on my 3d mouse for personalization and don't even need fit / zoom to -commands as it's so easy to zoom & position model ;) :p :D  (sorry, I just had to mention it)

    Of course we need customizable toolbars, shortcuts, color, ui, menus, materials, etc.. - but at first we need all standard features one would expect from industrial level mcad.

    //rami
  • john_mcclaryjohn_mcclary Member, Developers Posts: 1,851 PRO
    You want my mouse, admit it  :p
  • StephenGStephenG Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭
    To: 3DCAD
    Given your workflow description: need to zoom in on some small detail and then quickly zoom back out, here is how my proposed behavioral change to "Zoom to fit" would work...

    To zoom in, just select something in the vicinity where to want to zoom up on. The highlighted selection gives you a pretty good idea as to how much zoom/pan will result when the "f" "Zoom to fit" key is depressed.

    If the selection is not exactly what you want you have two options: 1) clear the selection using the "Space bar" and select something different , or 2) go ahead and depress the "f" key to get a better look at what you want to zoom up on, then "Space bar" clear the selection and select new target to zoom up on and depress the "f" key again.

    Now to zoom back out, use the "space bar" to make sure nothing is selected then depress the the "f" "Zoom to fit" keyboard short cut. With nothing selected the "f" "Zoom to fit" functions as it does today, zooms and pans to show you everything.

    For a right handed person having one's left hand on the keyboard (thumb on Space bar, index/pointer finger on the "f" key with its raised key bump) and right hand on the mouse, index/pointer finger on the Left Mouse Button (select behavior) represents the most ergonomic elegant solution to zooming in/out; one does not have to move hand/fingers to employ other keys, or a different mouse button to effect a "Zoom to selection". 

    I am confident that once implemented no one will think twice about using MMB double click, or using the RMB context "Zoom to selection" menu choice; those methods should be depreciated out of the product.


    To: john_mcclary
    I also love keyboard/mouse shortcuts, or should I say I hate a UI that requires a lot of mousing around (mouse movement).

    Onshape is the first 3D modeler I have used with decent keyboard shortcuts. I wish I had the opportunity to influence how they were implemented because they made decisions that limit the expanded/productive use of keyboard shortcuts.

    When keyboard shortcuts are implemented correctly there is little need to customize them.
  • john_mcclaryjohn_mcclary Member, Developers Posts: 1,851 PRO
    @StephenG

    I'm just saying there is no "Correct" way to make keyboard shortcuts. Except to give the user the option to change them ALL...
    That's why I'm hoping this topic gets pushed towards fully customizable shortcuts. Instead of just this one additional shortcut.

    I mean we all don't use the same keyboard layouts you know? So sometimes some key mappings don't work at all. (like ctlr-q is SW is regen, I have to map it to ctrl-' instead, for hardware compatibility reasons I won't go into here). 

    It's hard for me to explain, I've been writing this post for 2 hours and and deleted it twice; and omitted the longer explanation of why I map my keys differently. Just believe me when I say it's best to have options :)

    In case you don't know what I'm getting at. Here is my keyboard layout:

    ... now this post seems too vague.. I shouldn't have deleted all that I had earlier  :'(
  • StephenGStephenG Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭
    You made your point. I only see a non-QWERTY keyboard layout about once every decade and because most CAD terminology is heavily slanted towards the English language, so are the keyboard shortcuts.

    Your argument for user defined keyboard shortcut assignments is sound.

    By "implemented correctly" I mean the implementation is based on the notion the UI is driven two handed: one hand on the mouse and one hand on the keyboard. The keyboard shortcut assignments should be designed to be simple to effect one handed where frequency of use, and where hand/finger movement and reach is balanced to determine the assignment. For the most part Onshape has done a good job with shortcuts.

    With some exceptions, I am not a fan of keyboard shortcut assignments that require simultaneous depression of two keys, I prefer a sequence of two key depresses. The decision to make keyboard shortcut assignment a single key depress with a sometime optional modifier (Shift, Ctrl, or Alt) limits the number of functions that can have easy to remember keyboard shortcut assignments.
        

       
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,380 PRO
    StephenG said:
    To: 3DCAD

    Now to zoom back out, use the "space bar" to make sure nothing is selected then depress the the "f" "Zoom to fit" keyboard short cut. With nothing selected the "f" "Zoom to fit" functions as it does today, zooms and pans to show you everything.

    You missed my point, what if I wan't to select multiple things and use 'FIT' between selections ie. I wan't to 'FIT' whole model while keeping something selected.

    I'm actually quite happy with Onshape selection, viewing and shortcuts as they are today - but I do have 3d mouse in my left hand 95% of modeling time and I have mapped most used shortcuts into buttons around 'joystick'. I only use keyboard for number inputs and renaming.

    ps. Use @-mark (@StephenG or so) in replies, that way corresponding person gets notification of your reply.

    @john_mcclary
    Wow, where do you order your pc accessories - I'm glad you got at least numbers in usual order :#
    //rami
  • john_mcclaryjohn_mcclary Member, Developers Posts: 1,851 PRO
    I really need to stop posting after a night at the bar...

    @3dcad Just a normal keyboard, then modified ;p  Try it.. it's like typing on a piano
  • StephenGStephenG Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭
    @3DCAD

    "What if you wan't to select multiple small details in big model. You zoom in, select first instance, hit FIT to get quickly out, zoom into next.. you got the point."

    I missed your point because it was not there, or at least not described relative to the functional end result your are attempting to accomplish. I should have asked you for more information before responding. Could you describe the scenario where you repeatedly zoom in (using whatever method) to make a selection and then out (using the "Zoom to fit" to zoom out) where the need to retain the selection is important for some subsequent operation?

    Also, it would be helpful to know how frequently you do this "zoom in"/"Zoom to fit" where retaining the selection is important relative to other zoom in/out operations where retaining the selection is a non issue.
  • john_mcclaryjohn_mcclary Member, Developers Posts: 1,851 PRO
    @stephenG Here is the point. The most obvious reason would be measuring between 2 objects that are small and on the opposite side of a machine.

    Other reasons are speed, In drawings for example (solidworks) zoom out can take many times longer than just zoom extents.

    Video description: I measure to points first using <select1> zoom out <select2> then do the same thing again using <select1> MMB <select2>
    https://youtu.be/KAOCI0VBMw4

    The effect is more noticeable in larger assemblies, again this is just the more frequent times I want to zoom extents while keeping my selection. It is much more rare to need to zoom to selection, which is why zoom to selection should be the (alternate) function, which would take more key presses.
  • StephenGStephenG Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭
    @john_mcclary
    @3dcad

    Thanks for providing an example were retaining a selection between zooms is required, showing that my proposed change to the behavior of "Zoom to fit" would be detrimental. I honestly was mentally challenged to think of a modeling situation where a selection retention would be required between using "Zoom to fit"; I did not consider ad-hoc measurement queries that span large distances relative to entity display size, or adding dimensional annotation to a drawing. This made me think of another (true modeling) situation: creating a sketch constraint between entities spanning a large distance.

    So the requirement to zoom to show the full content of a tab (whether is a Part Studio, Assembly, or Drawing) without losing a selection has been reaffirmed. Now the question is, should this requirement dictate "Zoom to fit" behavior to remain as is, or should this requirement be satisfied another way.

    The goal of the proposed change was to make it easier to effect a "Zoom to selection". My proposal was to merge the "Zoom to fit" and "Zoom to section" behavior to the "f" keyboard shortcut where the behavior difference depended on selection state. Obviously, this cannot be done unless some accommodation is made to allow for a zoom that shows all content in a tab independent of what is selected.

    In my opinion the proposed dualism behavior for the keyboard shortcut "f" best serves the Onshape user; the need to zoom to show the entire tab content when something is selected is a special case and should supported other means.

    What that other means might be requires careful consideration if it is going to be a keyboard shortcut. Onshape's decision to use single key keyboard shortcuts with optional modifiers makes it challenging to find the right one that makes sense to the user and plays nice with the browser. (<Shift> f, <Ctrl> f, and <Alt> f have all been spoken for.)

    (Have you noticed that "Zoom to fit" is also available in the RMB popup menu and the behavior of "Zoom to selection" with nothing selected is very close to "Zoom to fit"?  Maybe just changing the "f" keyboard shortcut from "Zoom to fit" to "Zoom to selection" is all that is necessary. For the special case to zoom the entire content of a tab would be to use the RMB popup menu and select "Zoom to fit". And while they are at it change the name to "Zoom all", "Zoom to fit" is ambiguous.  

    Also, I just discovered "Zoom to selection" is not available when working a drawing tab. Not sure why that was done.)
    --------------------------------
    On a separate subject, I would like to know if you can configure your fancy input devices to sense the Onshape context (Document, Part Studio-Modeling, Part Studio-Sketching, Assembly, Drawing) and change the devices behavior/button mapping appropriately?
     
  • john_mcclaryjohn_mcclary Member, Developers Posts: 1,851 PRO
    @StephenG ;

    not sure about the space mouse, but all my devices don't pull meta data from a web browser.. so it would be a new key bind. But like I said zoom to selection is rare enough for me I wouldn't bind it anyways; but shift+f / shift+[2x]MMB would help every user without needing a special key bind or fancy device.   

    All the user needs to remember is.  
    Add  shift to zoom to fit  => zoom to selection

    Sorry but in my mind it's so plain and simple this topic has gone wild :)
  • StephenGStephenG Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Have you noticed that not one Onshape person has chimed in on this discussion? Normally they are quick to comment. Makes you wonder if they are silently watching in the background.

    Just want to say "Hi" to all the Onshape employees who are watching.  :)

    I watched a replay of today's Webinar and the presenter @cody_armstrong hinted that user customized keyboard shortcuts might be on the horizon. He certainly promoted keyboard shortcut use. 

    Also, here is a new version of my Onshape Keyboard Shortcuts and Mouse Behavior Quick Reference guide. I created a seperate section for general viewing and 2D mouse behavior.
  • Paul_J_PremakumarPaul_J_Premakumar Member, Onshape Employees Posts: 135
    @StephenG

     Yes, some of us have been watching this thread, in the background :) There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread. It would be helpful, if you and the others could create improvement requests. This helps us track and measure interest in features. Feel free to vote for any existing improvement request which may cover some of the suggestions in the thread.

     Thanks to everyone for the suggestions.
  • StephenGStephenG Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭
    Updated my Keyboard Shortcut reference card to include recent product enhancements.

  • StephenGStephenG Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭
    Updated my Keyboard Shortcut Reference Card to include changes in 3/22/2018 update.
  • StephenGStephenG Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭
    Another OS update (5/7/2018) with new Keyboard shortcut: Ctrl Spacebar - Switch between recently viewed OS document tabs.

    Updated my Keyboard Shortcut Reference Card to reflect this new shortcut.
  • StephenGStephenG Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Another OS update (7/12/2018). No actual changes to any Keyboard shortcuts in this update, but I took the opportunity to correct a couple of mistakes. Added a section covering graphical entity selection with the mouse. Added lines to box various groupings to improve readability.


  • StephenGStephenG Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭
    Added Alt-C (function search) Onshape. Tweaked wording and layout to improve clarity.  
  • StephenGStephenG Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭
    Here are the files...
  • StephenGStephenG Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭
    Something has changed; no longer able to upload updated files.

    Error Msg: "You are not allowed to upload files in this category."
  • StephenGStephenG Member Posts: 231 ✭✭✭
    File upload/attach problem has been fixed. Here are the updated files...
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