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Changes To Onshape's Plans

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Comments

  • fastwayjimfastwayjim Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 219 PRO

    I'm curious - what sort of Plan B do Pro guys like you have if OS raises the price or reduces features beyond what you find acceptable or, worse, goes out of business completely? 
    I have no plan B, and I lose 0.0 hours of sleep over it. This is coming from a former CAD Admin from the defense industry. It is more stable and more secure than any Windchill/Creo or Teamcenter/NX environment I've ever worked in.

    Question to the hobbyists: If you could do "design for hire" in Onshape (enough to cover the cost of a pro subscription) would you? In other words, what if Fastway Engineering prepaid your yearly subscription, but you then owed us X hours of design time that year. Would you sign a 1-year contract with us as a part time designer? This would allow you to continue to work on your hobby designs in private, but you would (theoretically) have less time to work on them. Discuss.

  • _Ðave__Ðave_ Member, Developers Posts: 712 ✭✭✭✭

    I'll bite Jim, How many hours do you want?

    _Ðave_

  • michael3424michael3424 Member Posts: 512 ✭✭✭

    I have no plan B, and I lose 0.0 hours of sleep over it. This is coming from a former CAD Admin from the defense industry. It is more stable and more secure than any Windchill/Creo or Teamcenter/NX environment I've ever worked in.

    Question to the hobbyists: If you could do "design for hire" in Onshape (enough to cover the cost of a pro subscription) would you? In other words, what if Fastway Engineering prepaid your yearly subscription, but you then owed us X hours of design time that year. Would you sign a 1-year contract with us as a part time designer? This would allow you to continue to work on your hobby designs in private, but you would (theoretically) have less time to work on them. Discuss.

    I don't have any issue with stable or secure; I was thinking more in terms of loss of the use of Onshape for some reason, specifically OS shutting down or pricing the service beyond your ability to pay.

    So far as contracts go, sure I'd consider it, but $1200 (for OS) doesn't buy many billable hours even at what I would consider a decent hourly rate.  I operate a (very) small job shop and would have to double or triple this year's business to even consider a Pro plan as an acceptable expense.
  • mahirmahir Member, Developers Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭✭
    @fastwayjim, I'd consider the arrangement, but it wouldn't remove the specter of losing access to my private data once the contract ran out. 
  • fastwayjimfastwayjim Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 219 PRO
    Dave et. al. - Is 1 year of data privacy worth 1 week of your time? I'm merely sparking the conversation, and am interested to hear everybody's opinions. PM me if you are really interested in chatting with me about your individual situations.

    @michael3424 - The company is as stable as the platform, you should go visit some time. Amazing people. So, what is a decent hourly rate? Let's talk numbers - It sounds like you have a $600 - $1200/year machine shop? What's the average job size? What would it take to get a few more jobs in there? A little advertising in your local community? Reaching out to larger shops for overflow work? Think bigger.

    @mahir - How about a multi-year contract?

    As if it's not obvious, those of us who are [pro] have figured out how to afford the $1200. I doubt we're a bunch of rich, retired hobbyists - we just engineered a solution. Maybe we make money directly off of Onshape, or maybe we don't, but either way, our customers are paying for our Onshape privacy. BTW, many of us figured out how to make money off of CAD (most likely on the side at first) long before Onshape came along.

    In this day and age, if you are 100% self funding your hobby your doing it wrong. As Designers and Engineers, we are creative thinkers and problem solvers. Now apply that to business, and become a part of the gig economy already.
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,442 PRO
    Couldn't agree more. If you are even semi-skilled Onshape (any 3dcad) user, you shouldn't have any problem to come up with $1200 / year using some of your sparetime for paid design work. Of course things are not that simple, if you're an individual you need to earn much more to get $1200 after taxes.
    This is where Jim's idea can help you.

    Maybe Onshape could build portal for 'design-farm' where anyone could buy short (or long) term modeling service easily. Work would then be assigned to whomever is marked him/herself as available.. I'm amazed if something like this doesn't already exist but I'm not aware of such.
    //rami
  • michael3424michael3424 Member Posts: 512 ✭✭✭

    @michael3424 - The company is as stable as the platform, you should go visit some time. Amazing people. So, what is a decent hourly rate? Let's talk numbers - It sounds like you have a $600 - $1200/year machine shop? What's the average job size? What would it take to get a few more jobs in there? A little advertising in your local community? Reaching out to larger shops for overflow work? Think bigger.

    I'm glad to hear that the company is stable, if only for the sake of their employees.  Their tech support has been very good to me, both here in the forum and in private communication and I'd hate to see such nice folks at risk of job loss.

    My "sales" are highly variable but have been much higher than $600/year for the past few years.  My primary product is machine work and CAD is ancillary to that.  My highest expenses are the machine tools and consumables  and those expenses *always* have to be met or nothing gets sold since nothing can be machined.  I currently have 3 legal options for CAD, one of which was Onshape, and the other two options are a perpetual license of GeoMagic Design and (as of a few days ago) a free license of F360.  At present, I can easily do my CAD work with GMD so Onshape is not essential at all for me.  CAD consumes perhaps 5-10% of the effort I expend for the sales I make.  Consequently I need a lot of sales to justify the cost of CAD, probably $15-30k in the case of Pro Onshape.  As a recent retiree my objective is to only make enough profit to pay for my hobbies and the last thing I want to do is grow a business to the point where it starts to dominate my life.  Given all that I am not a good candidate for the Pro plan, though a middle tier at say $600/year might still make sense, especially when my hobby interests are considered.

    It appears, though, that people like me are apparently not part of Onshape's target customer base.  That's OK, but I do wish Onshape had made that clear from the start.
  • labernlabern Member Posts: 33 ✭✭✭
    I really didn't want to move to Fusion 360 but now i think its time.
    I have loved Onshape and have encouraged a lot of people to join up and really wanted it to turn into the best cad option out there.
    I have been with Onshape since Beta a have loved how it has progressed so far. As for the CAD side of things I still think its the best, but as for the plans Onshape is really missing the boat.

    I am a promoter of open source and have a lot of opensource designs released. But this doesn't mean that every open source designer wants everything to be public right from the start.
    It also doesn't mean that Opensource designers want every design to be opensource.
    Onshape recently went to Ultimakers UM3 release. Ultimaker is a Opensource 3D printer manufacture who is extremely successful AND they only release the design files that makes them opensource 6 months after the product release.

    I have had countless annoying phone calls from a Onshape rep trying to get me to sign up to Onshape Pro and I tell him every time, I don't make money from my designs but if you provide a Maker plan at a lower cost then the pro with limited storage then I will be happy to sign up.

    As for fusion 360, they have a low cost option that is affordable to Makers and the second biggest CAD market share ( according to cnc cookbook Fusion 360 14.6% while Onshape sitting at 3.9% ). Not only this but they also have integrated CAM. Why is Onshape refusing to tap into this maker market? I just don't get why Onshape does not consider a middle tier plan. So many people have been requesting this right from beta. Opensource market is a lot smaller then Makers in general and so many makers people are willing to pay.
    I think this announcement will only increase Fusion 360 market share which will provide more shared content for makers and make an even more attractive package for new comers. I have read so many people out side of these forums who a making the switch which is a sad sight but I think its a good move and one I think I will also make.
  • øyvind_kaurstadøyvind_kaurstad Member Posts: 234 ✭✭✭
    Why does this thread just drop down on the front page, despite there being new posts to it (and no "New" indication to it either)? The name of the latest poster is updated, but the date seems to be stuck at November 10?
  • owen_sparksowen_sparks Member, Developers Posts: 2,660 PRO
    Why does this thread just drop down on the front page, despite there being new posts to it (and no "New" indication to it either)? The name of the latest poster is updated, but the date seems to be stuck at November 10?
    I was just thinking the same thing.  I received an email notification of a new post but other than that it's as if it never happened.
    Business Systems and Configuration Controller
    HWM-Water Ltd
  • michael3424michael3424 Member Posts: 512 ✭✭✭
    Why does this thread just drop down on the front page, despite there being new posts to it (and no "New" indication to it either)? The name of the latest poster is updated, but the date seems to be stuck at November 10?
    I was just thinking the same thing.  I received an email notification of a new post but other than that it's as if it never happened.
    The same thing occurred to me this morning.  It sounds a bit suspicious as though letting it scroll down below the first page of threads will make it disappear, though I've seen the same thing with other threads that weren't at all sensitive so maybe there is another reason.

    BTW, I see from another thread that OS can turn features on or off for selected groups of users.  That was in the context of testing  new features but two other thoughts occurred to me - 1) The infrastructure may already be in place to limit features for users in different classes and, 2) Programming to limit the number and size of private documents shouldn't be much of a problem.

    One possible consequence of (1) is that OS might start charging extra fees for certain classes of features so Pro users might want to consider that possibility. 

    Also someone keeps voting down replies in this thread which seems a bit childish.
  • andre_schuetzandre_schuetz Member Posts: 1
    So with this cloud based software we will never know when the free plan users will be booted entirely or our data storage is reduced or the feature set becomes restricted?? This is one of the risks of going cloud-based. 

    I have an entirely original VTOL aircraft project that I was hoping to design here and then build in the Philippines. Yes, in the Philippines, primarily to create employment in a country where it is really needed. Funds are extremely limited and there is no way I can afford to spend thousands on CAD to bring my vision to reality - it is the free platform that brought me here in the first place. A major portion of the build will need to be crowd or sponsor funded. It is really hard for the little guy to get something done, especially when one does not expect to make a profit. Maybe I need to look at FreeCAD.

    I really like what you are doing here and hope it works out for you, but I think I better look at another tool - something that I have a little more control over.
  • steven_heidesteven_heide Member Posts: 3
    I find this change very disappointing too. I also recommended OS to my employer and they purchased a seat, I'm starting to think it might have been a mistake and I don't think I could recommend OS again unless things change.

    OS really does need a middle tier and the free tier should have been left with at least 1 private document.
  • kinsleymarkkinsleymark Member Posts: 35 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2016
    It seems like the conversation is primarily focused on two extremes: Professionals at one end, and free hobbyists/makers on the other end. However, I believe there are a number of people, like me, who fall somewhere in the middle: I'm completely willing to pay money for a product (yes - even $1200), just not this product in it's current form.

    As a business, I'm certainly willing to pay to use a product that is so pivotal to creating income. Unfortunately, Onshape in its current shape is not worth the $1200 to us. It's currently too immature and "beta" feeling. It can do some of what I need (and do it really well), but I still have to use other programs to accomplish what I need. (For reference, with Solidworks, 95% of what I needed could be done). I suspect that other free users are in the same boat.

    For the past year, I've been using and testing both Onshape and Fusion360. Both programs have their plusses and minuses. However, I've come to find that for every feature that Onshape releases ("tab search", "document tags", etc), Fusion360 releases entire categories ("Mesh Workspace", "Cloud Simulation", "Rendering", "CAM", etc). If I have $1200 set aside to pay for a product, my money is going to go towards the software the provides the most value, and also shows the most signs of including features that will one day be mature and valuable to me. Onshape does not do that yet. (there are countless threads about feature wish-lists, so I won't add to that here). Fusion360 is also not worth $1200 and is also missing features and can be very buggy - but at least they have a low tier payment plan that allows me to work and grow with the software and still use it for viable work. In addition, Fusion360 has a public roadmap -- so I know that any time and money I've invested will pay off as I am able to see future feature releases. I have no clue what Onshape will look like or what features they feel are important.

    Someday, Onshape will hopefully be a fully mature product and worth the money to me. But by that time, I'll have already invested time and training into Fusion360 and won't want to change.
  • OpenR2OpenR2 OS Professional Posts: 188 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2016
    Fusion 360 may not be worth $1200 a year but it doesn't cost that. Last price I saw was $100 for a year and $120 for 2 years.

    I paid $25 for last years subscription.
    I have no problem paying $120 to extend for another two years.
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,442 PRO
    Just a thought, I have nothing against Fusion 360.

    If last year was $25 and now it is 100$ - that's 4x price.
    So that could indicate similar route as Onshape but they are just increasing the price.
    Is there any promise that price will stay below Onshape when they reach industrial standards in features and stability?

    Another thought:

    If there is anyone with the facts it would be interesting to estimate the numbers what new cad company needs to succeed:

    Developers cost, 50x $5000 ? / month = 250 000  -> at least 3 million / year
    Other costs, could be similar per person so
    Total cost around 6 M$ / year, starting from day one.

    After what 2-3 years there could be posibility to begin early beta testing, that requires more stuff in customer service, accounting, etc..

    So cost when moving out of beta could be around 30 million dollars.

    Cost per user is something and general expenses are growing a bit per user.

    So how many users can there be?

    I suppose investors expect to see zero result in couple years after launch and remarkable profit after few years to get their money back.

    I don't have a clue of real numbers as I'm not even close to this business - but I know numbers are huge and it's real money they need to cover all of the costs - not matter if it's called Onshape or Fusion.. (I know Fusion is not company but only one product, it still needs to eventually make profit to stay alive)
    //rami
  • michael3424michael3424 Member Posts: 512 ✭✭✭
    F360 Standard is $40/month or $300/year if paid annually.  F360 Ultimate is $1,200 per year but that includes 4th axis CAM of some sort and other utilities like FEA and photorendering that are usually extra cost for other CAD products.  Periodically they seem to be throwing a short-term sale - the last one was $25 for a year of F360 Standard and there is another on Black Friday weekend for 80% off standard for a 2-year annual pre-pay, making it $120 for 2 years.  So far as I know, F360 Standard is still free for educators, hobbyists, and small businesses making less than $100k/yr.

    I'd guess that F360 prices will go up over time as that is just the nature of things and it wouldn't surprise me if the free plan is eliminated or restricted at some point.  Eventually those of us using F360 for free may also become disillusioned as pricing develops but for now it is an excellent deal and there seems at least the possibility for an affordable lower or middle tier.  Onshape has nothing comparable to offer and, at least for now, have made it clear that they never intend to.

    I suspect that your estimate for OS technical staff labor cost is pretty far below the actual cost.  I worked in a technical field in an R&D function for many years here in the US and the burdened staff rate was something like $350k/year.  OS may partially compensate some of their staff with stock options so their cost may be somewhat lower but it is almost certainly a lot more than $60k per year.
  • OpenR2OpenR2 OS Professional Posts: 188 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2016
    Regular subscription is $120 for 2 years. I paid $25 for one year last year. I'll do the 2 year this time for $120. I just need the NC and Tornache post....plus I have all my tools modeled and stored.


  • øyvind_kaurstadøyvind_kaurstad Member Posts: 234 ✭✭✭
    So far as I know, F360 Standard is still free for educators, hobbyists, and small businesses making less than $100k/yr.
    Actually, it isn't the standard version that's free (for those that belong to the categories you specified), it's the Ultimate version. Now, for me that doesn't matter much, as the standard version contains all of what I really need and use, but having Ultimate is of course OK.

    I'm slowly getting better in F360, but there is a learning curve coming from Onshape. Some stuff is better, some is worse, but the total amount of tools and features in F360 blows Onshape totally out of the water.

    I still think Onshape is making a mistake with the new "forced share" plan, but by the time they (maybe) realize this, the users that wanted a middle tier plan will have left (and isn't likely to return), and the users on the new free plan will fill up Onshape servers with large amounts of garbage and half-finished stuff. Even if storage these days is cheap, it isn't free, so at some point I guess the Pro users will have to pay the price.
  • michael3424michael3424 Member Posts: 512 ✭✭✭
    So far as I know, F360 Standard is still free for educators, hobbyists, and small businesses making less than $100k/yr.
    Actually, it isn't the standard version that's free (for those that belong to the categories you specified), it's the Ultimate version. Now, for me that doesn't matter much, as the standard version contains all of what I really need and use, but having Ultimate is of course OK.

    I'm slowly getting better in F360, but there is a learning curve coming from Onshape. Some stuff is better, some is worse, but the total amount of tools and features in F360 blows Onshape totally out of the water.

    I still think Onshape is making a mistake with the new "forced share" plan, but by the time they (maybe) realize this, the users that wanted a middle tier plan will have left (and isn't likely to return), and the users on the new free plan will fill up Onshape servers with large amounts of garbage and half-finished stuff. Even if storage these days is cheap, it isn't free, so at some point I guess the Pro users will have to pay the price.
    Autodesk needs to be doing a better job with their web site maintenance - when I looked for F360 pricing on Ultimate recently the ADESK page I landed on had separate pricing for both - $300 vs $1200 per year.

    I'm finding the same as you you wrt learning curve but there are some good videos out there that help out, though I think Onshape's videos are generally better and OS seems a bit more consistent in the UI.  The built-in CAM in F360 seems more than decent and that adds a lot of value for me.  Interesting that neither OS nor F360 supports hole call outs in drawings yet. I also agree that public OS storage will be a cesspool of garbage after a bit of time and that Pro users will be subsidizing it.  

    I'd love to be a fly on the wall during OS strategy or investor meetings to see what is behind this change.
  • OpenR2OpenR2 OS Professional Posts: 188 ✭✭✭
    I think if you are trying to recoup $80M in seed money you been 66,666 pro subscriptions at $1200 a pop. :)
  • øyvind_kaurstadøyvind_kaurstad Member Posts: 234 ✭✭✭
    OpenR2 said:
    I think if you are trying to recoup $80M in seed money you been 66,666 pro subscriptions at $1200 a pop. :)
    Yes, if you had to do it in just one year, but that's of course totally unrealistic.
    However, it might be that the number of subscriptions is still so low that the price of $1200 isn't enough to give a decent ROI. I gather that the price of pro will rise proportionally with investor impatience, so pro users probably need to brace themselves. This plan change may well be founded on a belief that current free users will need the privacy that only pro users have. Might be true for some, but I guess the majority of us "mid-tier"-guys jumps ship instead.
  • steven_heidesteven_heide Member Posts: 3
    Well I'm just about to sign up for a 2 year subscription of Fusion 360 for only £110.40, this is a black friday/cyber monday weekend price.

    It's a shame OS can't change their minds about the recent changes. If OS had similar pricing structure to Fusion 360 normal pricing they could have had my money.
  • SynioSynio Member Posts: 2
    @steven_heide Thanks for the info, I'm looking into the 2 year subscription of Fusion 360. Lost all trust in Onshape. 
  • barry_i_blevinsbarry_i_blevins Member Posts: 9 ✭✭
    OnShape,

      I guess I was not paying much attention to the emails. They all seemed to be for webinars that took place while I was at my day job. Probably very helpful, but I just deleted them. Likely did that to the BOMB too! I was kind of disappointed to hear at Thanksgiving from someone I got on board and excited about OS not too long ago that they were changing things. When I got home, I learned from these forums that it is true. 

       I am a full time utility worker who had an idea for an industry related invention. I have built working prototypes and found that for the next step I needed to have the product CAD modeled. Every one I talked to said I would be charged about $125 an hour. Seemed ridiculous to me. Then after a little internet search I stumbled across OS. Was like a dream come true! I invested in a new computer so I wouldn't have to do it all from my phone. Then I spent countless hours building my proficiency with the program since I was new to this CAD world. Now that I finally got my idea modeled to a point where it actually looks like the real prototype on my work bench, it appears I will only be able to view the files unless I upgrade or make it public. At this point I really do not want to do either. I can't!!! I can't afford the pro pricing and I do not wish to give away the farm!

      Like others have said, a cheaper plan for those like me would be stellar. Not that we wouldn't want to pay more for a great product, but most of us do not have a company already established that can easily write these expenses off. We live paycheck to paycheck, and really appreciated the privacy of our potentially valuable documents. I could conceivably pay a few dollars a month but not $100+.  

       You have an awesome product. It is worth something. Make it available to people like me, and from what I read, there are many, who need an affordable price, and the privacy for unpateneted ideas. This is how we all win. We get what we need and you get more money! You pretty much ruined my Thanksgiving. So lets make this work so we can all have a good Christmas!

    Regards,
    Barry I. Blevins
  • _Ðave__Ðave_ Member, Developers Posts: 712 ✭✭✭✭
    I was actually about  to purchase a pro account when this change took place. The 25% increase caused be to take pause and consider just how much this will cost when fully developed. I decided to wait a few years and see if the pricing holds. I feel that I'm willing to pay the same as the subscription price of the standard solidworks in which Onshape is pushing now.

     I would also say that I appreciate the the free unrestricted (and now with unlimited storage) public use of Onshape.

    _Ðave_
  • brian_11brian_11 Member Posts: 7

    Back in May 2015 when OnShape changed the terms for hobby users, I had an exchange with an OnShape rep who was soliciting input.  I told him that the drastic change in terms for hobby users made me feel betrayed and that I had no confidence that they wouldn't change the terms again in the future.   I summed it up with a Darth Vader quote "I am altering the deal.  Pray I don't alter it further".   Well, looks like they did alter it further.

    Back in May, because of my lost confidence and reluctance to invest more time learning software that I couldn't trust to be there, I mostly moved on to a more stable competitor's product and stopped talking up OnShape to colleagues.

    I checked in today because I have noticed OnShape employees stalking me on LinkedIn and had a missed call from OnShape today, so I was curious as to why sales guys were circling. :)

  • JlabsJlabs Member Posts: 28 ✭✭
    So far as I know, F360 Standard is still free for educators, hobbyists, and small businesses making less than $100k/yr.
    Actually, it isn't the standard version that's free (for those that belong to the categories you specified), it's the Ultimate version. Now, for me that doesn't matter much, as the standard version contains all of what I really need and use, but having Ultimate is of course OK.

    I'm slowly getting better in F360, but there is a learning curve coming from Onshape. Some stuff is better, some is worse, but the total amount of tools and features in F360 blows Onshape totally out of the water.

    I still think Onshape is making a mistake with the new "forced share" plan, but by the time they (maybe) realize this, the users that wanted a middle tier plan will have left (and isn't likely to return), and the users on the new free plan will fill up Onshape servers with large amounts of garbage and half-finished stuff. Even if storage these days is cheap, it isn't free, so at some point I guess the Pro users will have to pay the price.
    I'm in the same boat. I'm particularly finding the navigation (pan, orbit) particularly clunky in 360, but I'm starting to discover some really cool tools and features that I didn't know I was missing in OS. I liked OS because of the simplicity and the ability to access it from any device. Now I'm in the beta list for 360's online tool, and the file storage is already cloud based (and ALWAYS PRIVATE) OnShape's appeal (even if they reverse their idiot decision) is fading. I'll adapt to the slightly uglier UI and the weird navigation controls, and free is great for me, but I'll pay for a sub even though I don't have to because the pricing is reasonable. 


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