Welcome to the Onshape forum! Ask questions and join in the discussions about everything Onshape.

First time visiting? Here are some places to start:
  1. Looking for a certain topic? Check out the categories filter or use Search (upper right).
  2. Need support? Ask a question to our Community Support category.
  3. Please submit support tickets for bugs but you can request improvements in the Product Feedback category.
  4. Be respectful, on topic and if you see a problem, Flag it.

If you would like to contact our Community Manager personally, feel free to send a private message or an email.

ECAD tool

pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
I've had a dialogue offline with Onshape personnel about the current state of ECAD and MCAD tools being separate. Onshape could clearly distinguish itself in the CAD market if it brought both of these tools under the same data model. Here is an excerpt of an email exchange I had. I am posting this here to facilitate discussion. This would be no small task, indeed, but it would really make working collaborately in design teams a joy...

....I was thinking of a toolset like Altium, but one that resides within the Onshape system. Altium seems very nice because it looks like the layout is entirely in 3D (as it really should be), unlike OrCAD. Currently when I work with EEs working on PCB designs, we have to constantly take data back and forth from a mechanical cad system and electrical cad system. The data is usually reproduced in the MCAD package as the PCB design is edited in an ECAD package. This creates the overhead of importing the data and managing the changes of the data in two CAD packages. If they all lived in one system where the layout of a PCB was a 3D model, it will allow electrical designers and mechanical designers to reduce a bit of design overhead and really collaborate efficiently on an electromechanical system. With Onshape as the total design tool they could see the same data and edits to the data in real time. Making the ECAD tool in Onshape another paid feature could keep costs manageable and separable between electrical and mechanical design needs. The data could always be available to any user, but the editing tools for ECAD designs might be separated behind a different pay wall. Having the data exist in the same format is the big thing in my mind. I would not be the one to comment on the particulars of the ECAD tools and what would be needed. Further down the road, I wonder if you could attract the component manufacturers to create models and related data for their components in Onshape and make their products public and shareable. Onshape users could then just use the manufacturers own data model in their designs. This would save electrical designers a tremendous amount of time creating their own library of parts. Onshape would be the library of parts for component manufacturers. Think of Onshape as the editing tool and publishing tool all in one (ECAD/MCAD and 3DContent Central). Hopefully I am making sense. I think I do… and others apparently do too…


http://www.lifecycleinsights.com/blog/technology-insights/single-mcad-ecad-application/


Hopefully, we can continue this dialogue. What I am asking is no small task I’m sure, but it would really make Onshape very unique and extremely valuable to design teams.


Regards,

Pete Yodis

Comments

  • traveler_hauptmantraveler_hauptman Member, OS Professional, Mentor, Developers Posts: 419 PRO
    You mean like this?: www.123dapp.com (I'm not a fan of Autodesk btw)
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    Kind of, I guess. I'm not too familiar with the 123D apps. At first appearance they don't look like tools that are meant for real seriously engineered designs -more like conceptual tools to quickly build and test, for the maker crowd. If you could take a system like Altium and place it inside Onshape -that's the kind of system I'm thinking of... just all working off the same single source of data.
  • lougallolougallo Member, Moderator, Onshape Employees, Developers Posts: 2,001
    edited October 2014
    I've seen www.upverter.com as well.
    Lou Gallo / PD/UX - Support - Community / Onshape, Inc.
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    Lou, thanks for the link for upverter. Interesting. I'll take a look.
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    Looks like upverter's layout is not in 3D, which I would argue should be the case in today's design world. This would be important for checking interference/fitment with packaging and analyzing fluid flow/thermodynamics. Maybe upverter needs a 3D partner to help them do it right ;)
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    Here is Altium's 3D interface for PCB design. Very nice - you get a 3D model within Altium for the design you are working on....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Dz0KckiSM
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    Looks like Upverter is advertising a 3D side... https://upverter.com/solution/electrical-mechanical-integration/.  I hadn't noticed this before.  I don't know if I overlooked it or they just weren't mentioning it yet.  I see the website looks different, so I think it's the latter.  If you read through, a model is generated as the layout is done.  They expect a mechanical engineer to either import the STL file (boo) or view the design through the browser.  It would be real nice if Onshape was generating the 3D data, or housing it automatically... Electrical designs would be housed within the Onshape system and collaboration was "live" so to speak between EEs and MEs - no ferrying data back and forth between systems, a tweak over there... data export...a tweak over there....data export... It could be much more efficient.
  • fastwayjimfastwayjim Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 220 PRO
    Having implemented MCAD/ECAD workflows before (Allegro/ProE, Allegro/NX), I can say that the power is in the library. I'm not sure if OS wants to be in the business of managing a massive ECAD/MCAD library to facilitate a one-stop electronics design studio. There are massive amounts of metadata needed, and it would only serve a subset of users.

    Methinks it would be best to just offer IDF import/export capabilities and move on. Keepouts (both in plane and in the Z direction) can and should be communicated to the PCB layout team well before the first iteration is "test fitted" in 3D CAD. Not to mention, a lot of PCB layout is outsourced.

    My 2 cents...
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    @FastwayJim Did you read the comments here?

    http://www.lifecycleinsights.com/blog/technology-insights/single-mcad-ecad-application/

    Part of Onshape's business model will be to provide the tool and host data for free on any set of data that is publically shared.  I think they do want to host the data.  My thought would be to have the component manufacturers control and maintain their own library within Onshape and share that with anyone that wants to use the components in their design.  That would be really efficient for everyone involved.
  • fastwayjimfastwayjim Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 220 PRO
    Yes, I read Chad's article. Thanks for the link to the BOM forum chat, it's really exciting that the capability is being considered!

    I just see it as a matter of short term vs. long term goals. Right now there is no ECAD solution in OS, and there really needs to be before they launch. As Chad points out, PCB's. Are. Everywhere. I vote that they toss in an IDF translator, and move on. It's depth before breadth, IMHO, and there's plenty of core MCAD stuff that needs to get dialed in first...
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    @FastwayJim  I'm not proposing a combined ECAD solution by launch.  That is a huge undertaking that I would think would come well after launch - but it should be seriously considered.  This is the next generation of CAD.  The shackles need to be taken off.  No one is doing this yet.  Someone somewhere will do it because it makes too much sense and gives a lot of value to potential customers.  It might as well be Onshape.
  • fastwayjimfastwayjim Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 220 PRO
    @PDY I think that would be a game changer, no doubt.
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
  • rob_laceyrob_lacey Member Posts: 5
    Hi all - just to say that there is an ECAD-MCAD solution coming soon for Onshape: ecad.io (www.ecad.io). The website is up as a free online ECAD viewer only at the moment, but within the next couple of weeks we'll open up the rest of the site and have a fully functional solution for bringing ECAD files into Onshape. Currently it'll read IDF 2.0, IDF 3.0, Eagle (v6+) and IPC-2581 formats, and output to standard MCAD formats like STEP and IGES. We'll be adding more ECAD and MCAD formats over time.

    It's a web-based ECAD-MCAD translator rather than a standalone web-based ECAD system, so it'll take in files from desktop-based ECAD systems from Cadence, Mentor etc, and then produce MCAD files which can either be downloaded for use in a desktop-based MCAD system, or sent directly to web-based MCAD systems like Onshape.

    It's capable of building simple models using the data in the ECAD files, or more complex models using a built-in Library of standard electrical component packages. We've got about 1000 or so detailed models so far, but we'll be adding more in the coming months.

    We'd be really keen to hear your ideas and feedback, either on the limited functionality that's up there now, or on the full product when it's launched. Please let us know what your thoughts are - either here, or through the 'Contact Us' page of the site, and hopefully we'll have a great solution for ECAD-MCAD collaboration in Onshape as soon as possible.

    Many thanks, 

    Rob
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2015
    @Rob Lacey  I'd like to give it a try when you are ready.  I currently use and help use CircuitWorks in house on my day job, so I have a little (a little) bit of experience to draw from and compare to.  Great stuff.
  • rob_laceyrob_lacey Member Posts: 5
    Great, thanks Pete - much appreciated. You should be able to upload supported ECAD files, view them in 3D and add detailed components already. Obviously that's not a huge amount of use as it stands though, so I'll let you and the rest of the forum know as soon the Onshape link's up too. Unlike CircuitWorks it's not bi-directional yet, but we'll be adding that functionality as soon as we can. We also wrote CircuitWorks, so we're excited about the opportunities moving ECAD-MCAD to the cloud should bring - especially the collaboration aspect.
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    Thanks @Rob Lacey .  To be honest, I don't use the bi-directional aspect of CircuitWorks so I won't mind your first release whatsoever.  Usually our boards are packed enough where I don't want to tell the EE where things should be, I'd rather have them see and and adjust what they need as they are knowledgeable on where things can be moved in their board design. I'll take what I can get.  Thanks!
  • rob_laceyrob_lacey Member Posts: 5
    Initially our bi-directional capability will probably just be the board shape only. From our experience with CircuitWorks as you say the Mechanical guy generally doesn't tell the EE where to put his components, but a lot of people found it useful for the Mechanical Engineer to be able to define the initial shape of the board in the MCAD assembly. Hopefully we'll be able to get to that level of workflow pretty quickly. On that note I'd better get back to programming it! :smile: 
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    Rob Lacey said:
    Initially our bi-directional capability will probably just be the board shape only. From our experience with CircuitWorks as you say the Mechanical guy generally doesn't tell the EE where to put his components, but a lot of people found it useful for the Mechanical Engineer to be able to define the initial shape of the board in the MCAD assembly. Hopefully we'll be able to get to that level of workflow pretty quickly. On that note I'd better get back to programming it! :smile: 
    Makes perfect sense.
  • david_sohlstromdavid_sohlstrom Member, Mentor Posts: 159 ✭✭✭
    @Rob Lacey I looked at your program and the first thing I noticed is part rotation is the LMB. OnS part rotation is RMB. I would suggest that you change so both programs use the same button for rotation.

    Dave
    David Sohlstrom

    Ariel, WA
  • rob_laceyrob_lacey Member Posts: 5
    Thanks Dave - that's a good point. Ecad.io is designed to work with pretty much any CAD system (you can download MCAD files to use with SolidWorks, Inventor, Creo etc), so it's a challenge to have controls that are consistent with all of them. I think the best approach will be to add an option for mouse controls on the User Options page so users can match the controls as closely as possible. to their CAD system. I'll add it to the list of enhancements.
  • fastwayjimfastwayjim Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 220 PRO
    So, um, two months after this conversation, Ecad.io got acquired by Autodesk...

    Rob - Is there still a plan for the software to work directly with Onshape?
  • rob_laceyrob_lacey Member Posts: 5
    Hi Jim,

    Many apologies for the very long delay in replying, my email address associated this forum isn't valid any more, so I only stumbled upon your comment while searching for something else.

    To answer your question - yes, ecad.io does now belong to Autodesk. Consequently it was decided that the direct link to Onshape would be discontinued to enable the development team to concentrate on closer integration with Autodesk's MCAD tools.

    However, it is still possible to use ecad.io with onShape. Whilst it's no longer possible to send data directly from ecad.io to Onshape, you can still upload an ECAD file to ecad.io, create a STEP file, download it and then upload it to Onshape.

    There's are no plans to charge for ecad.io in the near future, so hopefully ecad.io will still prove to be a useful tool for Onshape users, but unfortunately with an extra step required!


  • mbattistellombattistello Member, Developers Posts: 51 ✭✭
    This is an older thread but I wanted to post that we have released a new ECAD app called IDF-to-3D thats integrated directly in Onshape. It uses the Intermediate Data Format (IDF) to generate detailed 3D cad models of the PCB using our component library. This an initial release so the workflow is not optimized but I could see a lot of opportunity in future for this approach.
  • fredrik_tärnellfredrik_tärnell Member Posts: 29 ✭✭
    edited June 2017
    @mbattistello,  tried it but it keeps failing, crashing and I need to go back to my document section. Really would like this to work. Tried a simpler board. Same issue. Any ideas ??

    Error message:
    There was a problem during the 3D build. Please reload the page. Your document is saved. You can refresh the browser to continue working on this document or return to the Documents page.

    Also the speed of the tool feels kind of slow. The online one below takes 2 sec to generate. IDF-to-3D about a minute before crashing.
    Used the online tool http://3dbrdviewer.cytec.bg/board. Just to give you an idea what I'm trying to import to onshape


  • mbattistellombattistello Member, Developers Posts: 51 ✭✭
    @fredrik_tärnell I looked at your sessions. The board/emn file is empty. Your library/emp file looks ok. Can you generate a new board file and try again. If you are still having issues I can connect with you offline and help.
  • mbattistellombattistello Member, Developers Posts: 51 ✭✭
    I took a quick look at the site you posted also. Its a 3D viewer specific to Eagle only.

    Combination of PythonOCC ( which is the python wrapper to the OpenCascade engine ) and Three.js (webgl for browser). Its limited to only Eagle board files and I dont think it gives any options to generate a model that can be imported into a CAD package. I also dont think there is a way to augment the component library. 

    The IDF-to-3D app will give you a 3D model and load it into Onshape. It will also let you modify component placements, upload your own components, integrate with Onshape collaboration and versioning, and will accept boards from other ECAD packages besides Eagle.

    If I try the example Arduino board in Eagle the site seems to also have lots of issues. This may be due to how Eagle manages some of the internal data. If you use Eagle with the IDF-to-3D export you should get a good board. If not then I can work to resolve it as I wrote the IDF exported and the IDF-to-3D application. Over the years we have tuned IDF-to-3D to work with lots of variations in boards and IDF files. We see lots of variation in files and we incorporate fixes for common issues (unclosed outlines, component/packages name issues, multiple board outlines, etc)

    Onshape IDF-to-3D screenshot

    Other site screenshot



Sign In or Register to comment.