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What is the OnShape business plan and roadmap ?

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Comments

  • _Ðave__Ðave_ Member, Developers Posts: 712 ✭✭✭✭
    Howdy All,

     This is my comment and only because if someone at Onshape takes 3dcad's comment seriously then I want to be on board.

    Great job Onshape gang!

    Dave
  • jacob_pelletierjacob_pelletier Member Posts: 4
    3dcad said:
    @jacob_pelletier As a fan of fixed price I see a problem in your approach, this would most likely kill the community support where you make your model public (or share) and others create their own copy and fix it for you. Not to mention just playing and learning.

    But I agree that it's a great difference from $0 to $100 only difference being limitation on active documents and 5gb storage. I would like to see something in the middle.
    @3cad :
    I really like the current community aspect and the public/private sharing features as well. However, I don't see how an a la carte pricing model would kill this community.  Under an a la carte system the free tier rules wouldn't necessarily change from what they are now and people would have the opportunity to play and learn as they do now. My suggested "a la carte" plan would be something that kicks in when you want to move beyond the resource restrictions (space,speed) of the free tier. 

    You agree that you would like to see something in the middle, but your ideal system isn't ideal for everyone. For example, I would be more interested in paying for access to additional virtual processors, dedicated hardware resources, faster raytracing (when they make raytracing a feature for everyone), or improved transfer rates for my documents so that the work flow is faster rather than paying only for tons of additional storage space. An a la carte model can make you happy and me happy at the same time (ie. $/cpu hour, $/GB month, $/Mb). Granted, I don't know any of the details of the backend infrastructure that powers Onshape and how much the local hardware resources of the user trump the resources of the cloud; but one would assume they are running their cloud service through one of the major players like Amazon which is doing the majority of the heavy lifting. I think I've read somewhere that their goal is to have a fast and smooth UI that is equal for all users so maybe my arguments are of little value. However, if space or document count is the only motivation for a paid version, then I still think that having a simple $/(GB month) or $/(private doc. month) for anything over the free tier is a better way to go. If Onshape still wants to offer, or users demand it, a fixed unlimited plan could kick in when one reaches the current $1200/year.
  • onshaperonshaper Member, Mentor Posts: 90 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2015
    The only thing I want to add is I hope things are priced 'a la carte.'

    For example, lets say I only need 20 private documents, should I spend as much as someone who has 10,000 private documents?

    Or lets say I need 2D cam, should I spend as much as someone who needs 5 axis high speed toolpaths?

    And lets say I need FEA von misses for one part for a week, should I spend as much as someone who is using FEA daily?

    I'm hoping Onshape will allow these things to be a-la-carte and prorated to the month, week, or even day.

    At the same time, though, I shouldn't be spending $8 for a render as per Autodesk Fusion 8.5x11" renders. That's insane.

    I think the hardest thing about current CAD/CAM offerings is you really have to dish out a huge amount of money for a lot of capability that you may never use. They don't differentiate between if you have one seat producing drawings and toolpaths for a company that makes $50M in revenue and someone who needs 3 axis machining for parts they sell on Etsy. Both people need similar capabilities but the scale and budget is so completely different. How you make this 'fair' for both is really difficult, but I have confidence Onshape will figure it out.

    I guess I would say for my small business, 10 private documents, 3 axis CAM, and drawings should cost about $50 a month. (This is why I jumped on the promotional $300 annual for Fusion Ultimate because it works out like that. I like Onshape better, though.) But that's just my opinion.

    And the idea of limiting documents is a little strange to me because you can have infinite (?) part studios inside each document... 
  • onshaperonshaper Member, Mentor Posts: 90 ✭✭✭
    Free - 5 private documents

    +$1 a month for additional documents up to 25 or +$50 a month, unlimited documents

    $10 a month - Drawings

    $10 a month 2.5 axis CAM
    +$10 a month per axis (3 axis, 4 axis, 5 axis, swiss turning center, etc)

    $10 a month FEA von misses
    $10 a month topology optimization
    $10 a month FEA heat transfer
    $10 a month FEA flow analysis


    So if you needed:

    10 documents $5
    3 axis CAM $20
    drawings $10
    von misses FEA $10
    topology optimization $10

    you'd be $55 a month
  • david_sohlstromdavid_sohlstrom Member, Mentor Posts: 159 ✭✭✭
    @3dcad At $50 that is still $600 a year. This is double what I pay for maintenance for Alibre. I am a hobby user and would hate to see any limits applied to the free version.

    Dave
    David Sohlstrom

    Ariel, WA
  • michael3424michael3424 Member Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    @David_Sohlstrom - after 3DS consolidated the two versions of into GMD into one, maintenance for all users is probably now $400/year, plus tax.  

    Mike
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,468 PRO
    @David_Sohlstrom But with onshape you have never spent $1000 or $2000 to puchase original license. I'm a hobby user of Ktm enduro motorcycles, but I still have to pay for them.

    Surely it's a difficult equation to please corporations, small business, freelancers, hobbyists and students.

    I just hope Onshape will get enough paid customers to keep it running and have plenty of development resources also in future.
    //rami
  • david_sohlstromdavid_sohlstrom Member, Mentor Posts: 159 ✭✭✭
    I know that 3DS will not get any more money out of me. I started with Alibre on day one and I don't want to add up how much I have invested in the software.
    I'd be OK if OnS went from free to $10 per month, $110 a year for say 10 docs and 10 gb

    I also hope that Onshape keeps going. It would be a shame for all those folks at OnS who have invested so much of there time to have it fail.

    Dave
    David Sohlstrom

    Ariel, WA
  • cadmandocadmando Member Posts: 68 ✭✭
    Thanks for all the previous very interesting comments and ideas, this post has proved how every one thinks about the free beta version. Changes to the free beta version are in the pipeline in the next few weeks, I have been asked to arrange a phone call with Philip Thomas to discuss these changes, this is arranged for 08:15 pm today, so will I should know more detail tonight, I will keep you informed of the outcome.

    Has anyone else be been approached about this subject.

    Graham
  • david_sohlstromdavid_sohlstrom Member, Mentor Posts: 159 ✭✭✭
    I have spoken with Jesse Bischoff via Skype a couple of times regarding changes to the free service. I do not like what they are thinking it would be a game stopper for me.

    Dave
    David Sohlstrom

    Ariel, WA
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,468 PRO
    I have been in phone conversation few times with Philip and other Ons people and I really like what they have in mind for the software.

    For licensing, it was clear to me from the beginning that at some early point I will get Pro just to learn how to handle longer list of active documents and how to decide whether to have a lot of tabs vs creating a lot of documents. I'm still in the process and will probably change my mind every week for a long time.
    About changes to the free version, I think it will still be a pretty good deal for being actually FREE of charge without time limit. I suppose there is no identity check so you can have as many accounts as you have emails.

    One more approach to pricing could be $100 / month for first year and lower down for the hobbyists after that..
    //rami
  • cadmandocadmando Member Posts: 68 ✭✭
    Just had a very good conversation with Philip this evening, not any disturbing changes as I can see for the free version:

    An increase of Private Document to 10, but the facility to make a document Inactive will be removed.

    Keep up the Great Work all you guys at Onshape.

    Thanks Philip for the very informative chat, next time I will give you my International Dialing Code, as promised I will Share my latest Project with you when it is complete



  • david_sohlstromdavid_sohlstrom Member, Mentor Posts: 159 ✭✭✭
    If they make the changes that you and Philip talked about and lower the amount of storage space this could be a game stopper for a lot of people.
    Even though we may be hobby users or small shop owners that just do not have the money to go pro does not mean that we may have more than 10 projects going at any one time. 
    What do you do a year from now what happens when you hit 11 projects does one have to get scraped. What happens if you have a very complex project that burns up your storage space and is not complete.
    I have said it before and I will say it again. I believe they need a semi pro level that is around $10 per month and 10 gb of storage space

    Dave
    David Sohlstrom

    Ariel, WA
  • ilya_baranilya_baran Onshape Employees, Developers, HDM Posts: 1,125
    @david_sohlstrom I'm an engineer and not involved in the free/pro model decisions, but out of curiosity, if you're a hobby user, what's the harm in making your documents public?  It's only private docs/storage that there's talk about limiting.
    Ilya Baran \ VP, Architecture and FeatureScript \ Onshape Inc
  • cadmandocadmando Member Posts: 68 ✭✭
    Dave
    Just make your documents Public if your only using as a Hobbyist. It's that simple.
  • david_sohlstromdavid_sohlstrom Member, Mentor Posts: 159 ✭✭✭
    At present I am a hobby user but I would like to develop a line of model marine propulsion systems and move to a small business. For that reason I would not want to share most of my projects with the public.
    @ ilya-baran I do not understand why Onshape wants to only have 2 plans that users can choose from. Would it not make it more appealing to have a plan for the small business owner or a hobby user that need more open projects and more storage space.

    I am getting the idea that Onshape has discovered that there are one heck of a lot of hobby  or small business users taking up tons of storage space and bandwidth. Onshape is not making any money from these users so why not put in place limits that make Onshape only appealing to the big business owners that are paying thousands of dollars in maintenance costs per year and would save money using Onshape.

    Dave 
    David Sohlstrom

    Ariel, WA
  • andrew_troupandrew_troup Member, Mentor Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ......

    I am getting the idea that Onshape has discovered that there are one heck of a lot of hobby  or small business users taking up tons of storage space and bandwidth. Onshape is not making any money from these users so why not put in place limits that make Onshape only appealing to the big business owners that are paying thousands of dollars in maintenance costs per year and would save money using Onshape.

    Dave 
    Your suggestion that the current model does not apply to "hobby or small business" users might reflect your specific circumstances, as a user who expects to move from hobbyist to small business, but is not sufficiently confident in the move to feel inclined to pay the commercial rate.

    But if you do represent a sizable group, then I would expect that a business culture as responsive as Onshape has so far proved, operating in a free market, would accommodate  (in your words) a "heck of a lot of..." users.

    You are, of course, free to speculate that they would turn their back on them.
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,468 PRO
    If they make the changes that you and Philip talked about and lower the amount of storage space this could be a game stopper for a lot of people.
    Even though we may be hobby users or small shop owners that just do not have the money to go pro does not mean that we may have more than 10 projects going at any one time. 
    What do you do a year from now what happens when you hit 11 projects does one have to get scraped. What happens if you have a very complex project that burns up your storage space and is not complete.
    I have said it before and I will say it again. I believe they need a semi pro level that is around $10 per month and 10 gb of storage space

    Dave
    I have asked also if they will implement any 'quick local backup system' and there was some plans on one click document export (+import). So you should be able to easily store locally in-active documents and if your on-going project reaches the data limit, maybe you can pay a month or two to finish the project with pro --> archive locally --> go back to free. Until you have enough business to have Pro all the time.

    If there wasn't Alibre/Geomagic, $1200 / year without the need to puchase a license in the beginning is pretty sweet deal compared to SW, SE, etc..
    //rami
  • peter_franzenpeter_franzen Member Posts: 3
    edited June 2015
    I'd love to know if there are plans to add functionality for final renderings.  Keyshot and Blender are great to play around with, but without a beefy server (whether it's 12 cores on a couple of CPUs or a few high-end GPUs) it is tough for a home user to take advantage of what they can do.  Combining cloud-based design with cloud rendering would be truly fantastic, and as a hobbyist it is something that I'd consider paying a monthly fee for.
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,468 PRO
    @peter_franzen  That is true, for office use you can have $800 machine that will be more than enough for daily tasks but for rendering you would need $3000+ machine to get even decent workflow if you need to wait for rendering..
    I have decent pc and can get web images out in 5 minutes / piece (best quality), but for paper brochure I need to let it run in the background and do something else.
    I would love to see integrated powerful cloud rendering in Onshape tab with automatic update if model is changed.  

    //rami
  • christian_29christian_29 OS Professional Posts: 15 ✭✭
    Since onshape is build on a dynamically expanding cloud platform an other pricing idea could be driven by the amount of data your store and the amount of processing capacity you use. So I currently work on a fairly large model in onshape and would be willing to pay for more processing performance to speed up certain time consuming operations. Amazon Web Services for example charges you for on demand use and not availability. And I believe onshape is build on AWS. So you as a casual user get a certain amount of data and processing capacity for free every month. Professional users who work on their models everyday should pay for the additional use and processing time. The tricky part of course is figure how to measure each dial and how to price it.
    The dials are: 
    • actual use time within the model by hour.
    • size of model data store.
    • processing capacity...how many CPU cycles and how many cores are available to you and you are using.
    This model would adjust your cost based on your actual use and not based on system availability. Customers will love this especially the ones with fluctuating CAD needs. And the heavy duty users would still get a better deal than with the traditional annual or monthly licensing models. 
    Plus you can now add additional for pay services such as dedicated CPUs and machines. That option will also help with specifically security and privacy sensitive customers like the ones in Germany :-).

  • alan_89alan_89 Member Posts: 5 ✭✭
    Interesting ideas here

    Paying by modelling time + number of documents does sound like the fairest method to identify pro or semi pro users. If you work selling software (as i do) then you may have experienced that sadly alot of people will do what they can get away with, I've had people using software commercially openly say things along the lines of "why should i buy it when i have this pirate version for free!" A blind eye is often turned especially in small companies. 

    This presumes you can accurately detect inactivity but since traditional CAD network licenses based on flexnet can be set to timeout i presume this isn't too tricky? It could also be dual purpose and benefit  all users in that you could then track how long a project takes making billing or quoting in future more accurate. I've had this request of traditional CAD software numerous times but don't think we ever found a good way via API etc.

    As far as different semi pro levels etc the downside to having multiple versions is consumer confusion over which level to go for. I would see it more along the lines of a phone contract, if you exceed your minutes for this month you could buy more for, $10, $25 etc. Also while having a cheaper version sounds  great i wonder how sustainable it is, i suspect human nature would mean many would do everything they can to manage with the cheaper version. I really can't see how Autodesk are going to make money out of their $25 a month package in the long term given the amount of tools in it and the time to develop and maintain  and support each of them.

    Free seems to make sense to build a user base hopefully a good proportion of whom will do such great things and therefore be able to justify the pro offerings, i suppose Autodesk don't have such pressure as they can afford support it by selling other traditional software.
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    3dcad said:
    @peter_franzen  That is true, for office use you can have $800 machine that will be more than enough for daily tasks but for rendering you would need $3000+ machine to get even decent workflow if you need to wait for rendering..
    I have decent pc and can get web images out in 5 minutes / piece (best quality), but for paper brochure I need to let it run in the background and do something else.
    I would love to see integrated powerful cloud rendering in Onshape tab with automatic update if model is changed.  

    @3dcad ; @peter_franzen ; I hear you on the cloud rendering tools.  Here is one I did in Lagoa just the other day, fairly quick and dirty with decent results (don't critique my render skills too much...).  Not much time for me to wait around and tie up my machine.  Lagoa was nice for that.  I wasn't sure if I could still get into my account, but I managed to squeeze it out.



  • marc_23marc_23 Member Posts: 8
    I also understand their need to make money off of Onshape. They need a return on their massive investment.
    However, I'm a hobby user for now. If there are too many limitations or changes to the free plan, I'll probably have to bow out and use something like Cubify Invent or Design. I was worried there could be some sort of bait 'n switch.

    I think a multi-tier account offering would be very wise.

    Perhaps there could simply be a 'per document' monthly fee, in addition to the 5 or 10 or however many free ones you decide upon, for the hobby level person. And then for the pro, they would get unlimited and it wouldn't matter. As for how much per document, I don't know.

    I do like the idea of having a $10 or $15 dollar per month option as well.

    To have 'free' and then $100 a month as your only choices is a bit limiting.

    Final suggestion. To prevent abuse of having free users switching between active and inactive documents, you could install a time delay mechanism, where once you archive a project, it can be read, viewed or downloaded, but not edited for a period of time. Then, after the 'time lock' ( 1 week? 2 weeks? ) you could  'switch' it out of your 'archive' with another 'active' document in order to edit it again.
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,468 PRO
    edited June 2015
    It occurred to my mind that there shouldn't be anything preventing from a group of hobbyists buying only 1 pro licence. There is no limits on how many computers can be signed in and working simultaneously. Documents would be open to all members but it shouldn't be a problem for hobbyists. This way a group of 10 would pay $10 for month (+$1 for me giving the idea).

    There is also whole new business idea for anyone to buy a pro and offer space for free users to archive their work since we now have 'remove me from share' possibility. Then just ask to get back on share when you have enough space available. Pricing could be very low, 150 documents archived $1/doc/month and it would be already paying back (please remember 3% for me, business ideas just don't come for free)

      B)  =);)

    I'm sure we will see all kind of interesting solutions as the time goes and masses find this brilliant piece of cloud.. Probably there will be a 'no-cloud crack keygen' in pirate bay to enable Onshape offline use FOR FREE =):D  
    //rami
  • marc_23marc_23 Member Posts: 8
    @3dcad

    Hmm, for some reason I highly doubt they would allow sharing of a pro license:

    This part alone might prevent that:

    2.1 License. Subject to your compliance with the terms of this Agreement, Onshape hereby grants to you a non-exclusive, non-transferable, non-sublicensable right to use the Service.

    It also says:

    You are the only person to whom the license described in Section 2.1 extends, and you therefore are not permitted to allow any other person to use your Passwords to access the Service. 
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,468 PRO
    @marc_23  I hope that is enough to prevent such use. I would hate to see any restrictions to access my account with multiple devices at the same time.. 
    //rami
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