Software to use for early 2D sketching

3dcad

I use a lot of time working on different layouts. Until windows 8 I used something called Designer (by MicroGraf or smthing later on bought by Corel) which was very simple drawing software but unfortunately doesn't work with modern computers.
I could setup xp machine for this but I would like to do also homework, using xp remotely would be a bit clomsy..

I have tried to look for good modern alternatives and also tried to use Onshape sketching / Alibre drawings but they are all too fancy for this purpose.
SW draftsight has way too complex UI since I don't have previous experience..

I would need super light drawings software that can easily create lines, circles, arcs, rectangles with metric dimensions. It would be also nice if I can write text among shapes and measure distances. It would be almost perfect if I can use colors and patterns to make difference between shapes.
The key is that shape 'blocks' should be easily moved and rotated. And Ctrl drag to make a copy etc.. Select area and create block.. Old style, you know..

I would use this before creating exact assemblies with Onshape, even though 3D and assemblies have came far - nothing can beat simple approximate 2D drafting to quickly test ideas.

I would really appreciate if anyone knows good software for me - I really hate to do this with pen&paper..

ps. @lougallo This is one of the functionalities I would expect from Onshape drawings at some point..

bryan_lagrange

Have you looked at Siemens catchbook?

https://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/en_us/products/catchbook/

michał_1

Corel, Inkscape ?

Jake_Rosenfeld

Not exactly what you're looking for, but if you have an ipad you could try out zotebook from our friends over at https://zotebook.io/

walter

DraftSight 

3dcad

@bryan_lagrange
Catchbook seems very interesting, especially for tablet and it seems to work fine with my ThinkPad using stylus. I just might invest that 5,99€ and try it for a year. But as I mostly work in office, it's not so great using mouse..

@michał_1
Corel is a bit expensive for just light testing, Inkscape we use for other tasks in work - I will need to look deeper how it supports dimensions etc..

Thanks guys!

michael3424

Rami - As an aside were you aware that one of the principles of Micrografx Designer was also a principle of Alibre.  I think his name was Paul Grayson.

3dcad

What do you people think, if Onshape sketching had 'drafting mode' that would be same sketching environment but maybe it coulde be made signifigantly faster if we rip off the possibility to actually use sketches for extrude etc. - keep it just 2D?

Sketching has a lot of good functionality for this purpose but it gets way too slow if sketch grows bigger and it is acceptable as it is not build for project drafting. I would love to create complex sketches enriched with imported dxf that I would use in assembly to create layouts. Assembly has great tools with measuring and triad using numeric movements and rotation.

Afterwards this would work as backround sketch for 3d layout and positioning reference.

The best part would be of course the familiar interface in full cloud environment.  

It would be perfect solution for my needs at least. Is there anyone else that would need signifigantly more power into sketch handling performance?

@scott_harris (or anyone else)
Could yo explain why complex 2d sketch is so big hit for performance?
I have freezed one of my document for hours by inserting multiple house blueprints into sketches to compare - zero bodies, looks simple but seems to be VERY hard for Onshape.

@michael3424
I did not know that - interesting. Alibre WAS very promising piece of software..

3dcad

It doesn't take more than one of these (image below) to make things too slow.. And I would like to fill my whole screen with similar stuff

Of course I could replace that with dummy rectangle but then I lose the benefit of using dxfs that I get from suppliers and would have to draw everything myself and write text to know what block is this + feed directions etc.. Sketch image could be workaround but they don't show in assemby sketches.

scott_harris

Rami - Since the sketcher (and all "modern" sketchers) solves every constraint as you add and change entities, the system slows with complexity. Simple, non-constraint based 2D systems do not maintain consistency or capture design intent with every addition or change. That said, nothing should freeze your system for hours so please get the example to to support. 

michał_1

About drafting, eventually maybe, but there are many other things that will always be more important.

For now, Inkscape is fine, by default it uses pixels but you can change the defaults. There are a couple of differences in compare to Corel, but few only.
You're working in furniture industry so you might have already V-Crave. Except being cam software it has drafting tools, and they are almost the same as in all known vector graphic programs.
You can check also SolidEdge 2D Drafting 

3dcad

@scott_harris
Thanks for quick reply.

What do you think of possibility to 'turn off' solver and just let it be lines & curves?

I understand that I was using the system 'wrong' and I already removed few sketches and got the doc back on its feet - it's still slow though, I will contact support. Even though things have slowed down few times, Onshape has been BIG help for designing a house - not bad for mcad  

billy2

3dcad-

simplify your layouts, but keep them in OS. 



It drives me crazing walking into a company and they hand me manufacturing data for the their products. I'm always looking for the engineering data describing how the top level was put together.

• you don't need everything in one sketch, especially with a solver running.
• please identify your major datums so that parts refer to these and not one another
• don't put details in the layout, you're just claiming space
• keep it simple and as the project grows, so will the complexity
• identify it, you may be long gone and I still have to follow your skeleton assembly and I need to understand it

This discussion is definitely on the right track. Don't use something else to generate the layout. Make it apart of your documentation. I'd appreciate a well documented project structure if I had to maintain your stuff at a later date.

billy2

To me in an automated line, where the robot picks up things up, that's a datum. If the machine is symmetrical, that's a datum. If you're making something or handling something, the part establishes the datums. Aircraft, they all use the same datum structures, Boeing & airbus same datum structures.

Establishing datums isn't easy, but if you do them correctly, the project grows beautifully. Multiple engineers work together nicely. Things get done faster. You'll make me happy.

I should know when you're assembling by coordinates and when you're not. I need to understand the referencing scheme. When do you allow assy(incontext) references and when they are not permitted. Theres a lot that goes into a top level that describes a project. If you do it right, your project will be a joy to work on for years. If you don't, then you'll have SW.

billy2

pete showed me this the other day and it's huge:




In your layout, tell me why.

3dcad

I was actually hoping that you ( @billy2 ) would show me how it shoud be done - and you did

I thought I would create blocks as separate sketches into single studio and use assembly for positioning. Editing blocks should be easy using 'Hide other sketches' so I can just create stack of sketches and be careful with naming. In assembly I begin with planar mating everything on 'top plane' then it has 'one click' triad to move /rotate blocks in '2d space'. Measuring tool is brilliant. 

I just need to figure how to make 'blocks' to look enough like machines but keep them simple, sketch image could be light solution but thay are not visible in assembly. Decals will probably solve this at some point.

Using comments for commenting layout and purpose of things is genious - it seems like Onsape has reached the point where one can totally forget some functionality until someone in this great forum refreshes your memory.


Thanks for all suggestions - I did download and try few 2d options - but I'm pretty sure I will push myself to bend Onshape into this purpose too. Having things in cloud accessible with all devices is just something that is very easy to get used to - anything less feels like past (like downloading 2gig solidEdge package from crappy server using 4 hours to transfer).


So why did I totally 'turn my jacket' overnight?
Well, this could be part of psychological lesson 'How to think properly'. I have thought this layout  workflow in short bits every now and then (in hurry) - never really took time to just sit and think what can I currently do with my available tools.
 
Writing a question into forums in foreing language forced me to really think and write down what I need. After reading few answers and quickly testing other software, it appears that I need more than I first realized. And most of that functionality was right there in Onshape. I just haven't earlier needed to insert sketches into assembly nor thought of using anything else than single sketch or drawings for drafting.

I strongly recommend writing your problems on forum, sometimes solutions pops out while reading your own question before sending it out and doesn't even need to be published

Let's carry on discussion on best practises to use Onshape for drafting!

3dcad

One solution to make light but descriptive 'blocks' could be using screenshot of dxf and trace the important stuff into light version.. or just delete redundant stuff if original dxf is light enough to push into sketcher in first place.
On edit: I wish I could temporarily switch solver off to clean up dxf before actual insert.

Using just rectangles as movable blocks can cause problems with opening doors, dust extration piping, electrics, etc..

brucebartlett

I don't think it's quite what you are after but I'd love a way to be able to hand sketch over the top of model or even start to block stuff out with easy hand sketches on a iPad or some other form of digitizer. I already love the way the pictures come in and you can sketch over the top to get a rough scale. Rami Remember the Motorcycle project, here a sketch I did over the top of some images to start to get some form of scale. You could also start to layout different blocks and datums as @billy2 has mentioned, my idea would be to get some nice proportions and then build the detailed design on this.

https://cad.onshape.com/documents/75b863b1b99b44a9adfe592b/w/225476ffc0534d918a11418a/e/71880e6ed61f4a3196aee076

michał_1

Rami I like that you're trying to keep all workflow online. Not quite relevant to your current needs, but if you would need online vector graphic program check this one for your online workflow: https://gravit.io/

3dcad

@brucebartlett
I remember that, it was really nice having images behind. I wish we had more time to get that project going..
I agree, it would be sometimes useful to just sketch freely using stylus.. @bryan_lagrange linked cool siemens software, maybe something like that behind the model?

@michal_1
Thanks. I am 'looking for' (waiting for something to fall on my lap) online publishing software where I could draw&build, manage and share assembly instructions. Something like inkscape / adobe in-design with multiple pages and easy way to add images + some arrows and other light drawings.     

michał_1

Except for multiple pages gravit.io is fine, it does have similar sharing/permissions idea applied as Onshape do. Check this: https://gravit.io/documentation/E1hlMq1N-/Sharing-Folders-and-Designs

billy2

sorry 3dcad, I've never done 2D CAD and don't want to start now;

layouts are fairly simple, in this case driven on top of an image:


drag your acad in as an image, then put a layout on top of that:


All examples in this post are 2d layouts, but I have layouts that are 3d also. I'm not tied to a plan view for a layout of a project. The advantage to understanding a layout and creating it, especially in parametric modeling, is to keep the referencing straight. Parametric feature based modeling is all about referencing. Some organize it well and many don't.

Anyway, I'm not interested in a 2d sketcher, sorry.

3dcad

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in for 3D - also with layouts..


But for quick approximate testing top view 2D blocks are good. Maybe simple 3D blocks with image on top would be the best at the moment.
It would give better understanding of heights too.

I wish for EU regulation to end acad so I could get those 3D blocks together with offers instead of those dwgs. As a lazy guy, I wouldn't like to redraw those drawings into my layouts - and after each update I need to do it again.

Does anyone know how they do these models and animations? I suppose it's not mcad stuff..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usl5sq1OPes

Ben_Misegades

Why would you try to use something like Onshape for plant layouts, I'm curious? I would imagine that falls in the realm of BIM modeling, using something like Revit

3dcad

@ben_misegades435
I'm running small business in furniture industry. My business is based on low overall cost so I try to do as many things myself as possible.
So sometimes I need to design also production machines if I'm not satisfied on product/price on existing solutions. And going forward it feels natural to insert machine model into assembly and see how it fits into production line. I don't see any reason why I should jump into another platform at that point.

Mainly I use Onshape for furniture design and assembly instructions but I have also done 800m2 warehouse 3D model, machinery, production lines & layout, some 2D drafting and lately designed new house including placement on 5 hectare site. All these include some collaboration with suppliers and onsite modeling with phone/tablet. I think Onshape has served me well.

Does that answer to your question?

Ben_Misegades

Yes, that answers it very well! From some of the things shown in this thread I was under the impression that you were working on entire facility designs.

As a former contract-based independent designer/consultant myself I can fully understand the need for keeping costs low!

billy2

Nice video, all that to create a bookcase? You have to be making a lot of freak'n bookcases to pay for all of that.

I would say OS could create the geometry which is a major task in itself. Once you have the geometry then you create the animated video. I'd guess who ever created the video spent more than $20us.

There's several video rendering companies in the app store that'd love to take your OS geometry and render it. Most I've talked to render statically to makes things gold or clear like glass. Creating the animations and composing the movie is a lot of work. 

I'm interested in a live version you can post on your website and allow a user to fly through. I'm currently talking to OneRender about such a task. In this case, the user can fly through a rendered OS model. This will be hosted on your website and will be quite different than watching a video. The link would be live, if desired, what ever you do shows up on your website.

billy2

Forget about the video & rendering for now.

How are you going to setup a project that gets this machinery designed in 3 months? It's going to be more than one sleepless engineer.

There are people out there that want this type of performance. How do you tune an organization to accomplish such a task? One thing is Onshape and collaboration. If I hire 10 engineers, can I reduce the time to 10%?

Most companies would assign each engineer a piece of the machine only to assembly it months later. You start with a part and eventually put it in an assembly. This is bottom up design and performance is poor especially towards the end of the project when everything's coming together. You end up with 5 engineers fixing what the other 5 engineers created.

My point, start with an assembly (layout), hand the engineers a seed with all the proper references defined and tell them to stay inside the box. Months later everything begins to take shape. All assemblies are oriented properly. The floor's defined so all automated equipment is at the right height. As you approach day 90, it looks like a machine. This is top down. You start with an assembly, then you define the sub-assys down to the parts.

In solidwork you'd gather all the assemblies nightly or weekly and open the top level to witness the chaos. In onshape, if it's done right, you'll be able to watch the project grow real-time.

When this happens, desktop file-based CAD systems will be obsolete.

Keep the layout simple and drive everything. If you want it done right the 1st time and if you have multiple engineers working together, get the project layout right. It's more than a 2d drawing.

billy2

3dcad

I think we're talking about 2 different things. Seems like you have a facility and you're trying to create a 3D representation of your facility. Me, on the other hand, have an idea and want to make it into reality.

I too use blocks inside solidworks.

3dcad

I think we have a bunch of things in this thread now - good stuff. I'm not professional designer nor machine builder but I'm the one that pays for that in-efficient design work and suffer for having old technology since it takes so much time to build new.

As I see it, the problem (at least in woodworking machinery) today is that every few years they clear the table and create completely new frames, units, software, everything..
For example edgebanding machine, weight 10tn, length 12meter, price 0.5M€ - should be able to renew unit by unit, I consider it as bad design that new units need new frames and world is filled with old crap. Only thing I know about metal is the fact that old metal frame would be actually settled better than new shipped from factory.

Maybe next gen will apply more standard stuff into machinery - why use industrial $$$$ touchscreen pcs while you could create app for $399 ipad, if that brokes you get new one from market and install app, load parameters from cloud, connect usb and continue work. And Ipad screen is way better than industrial plastic.

@billy2 Yes, I have facilities and I'm constantly figuring out better layout with different combination of existing and new machinery. And yes, we have to make quite many cabinets etc. to pay for machinery - though we don't make kitchen stuff and don't have the most ridiculously expensive machines. The 'line' in video would be around 2+M€ and still needs bunch of employees to run - no good - but I suppose that's just to give idea about their products. 

3dcad

How do you start project with qty x designers top down from scratch? Click new assembly and..? 

The bottom up problems you mention appear also in finished product, one unit using 6mm screws while other is 8mm; covers blocking greese nipples, poor design forcing me to rip the whole unit off for opening some cover screws etc..

I truly hope things would change so that me 'the consumer' don't always think that I should have made this machine myself