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Extrude From (Starting Position)

adrian_vlzkzadrian_vlzkz Member Posts: 153 PRO
According to the closing of this IR, there is no need for the "Extrude From" or starting position in Onshape, but I have a scenario that I think proves different.

Closed IR:
https://forum.onshape.com/discussion/comment/35060#Comment_35060







Adrian V.
CAD Engineering Manager

Comments

  • NeilCookeNeilCooke Moderator, Onshape Employees Posts: 3,938
    edited September 23
    Totally agree - an option to offset the "extrude from" plane would be very useful and if the IR is closed I would open a new one. The way to do this now is to use a mate connector as your sketch plane and edit the mate connector to add an offset - if the master sketch is shared with other features then you would have to create a new sketch and "use" the edge.
    Director, Technical Services, EMEAI
  • adrian_vlzkzadrian_vlzkz Member Posts: 153 PRO
    Thanks Neil, two of our designers pointed this out the first day they started using Onshape (transitioning from SWx) so I would say is much necessary.
    Adrian V.
    CAD Engineering Manager
  • Evan_ReeseEvan_Reese Member Posts: 1,003 PRO
    Other issues with the current solution are that it takes phenomenally more clicks and knowhow to do than just picking a plane, and the extruded parts still draft from the sketch plane, and there's no way around it with the current implementation. I'd love a starting entity query.
    Evan Reese / Principal and Industrial Designer with Ovyl
    Website: ovyl.io
    Instagram: @evan.reese.designs
  • billy2billy2 Member, OS Professional, Mentor, Developers, User Group Leader Posts: 1,605 PRO
    The new way works fine and is more flexible & sensible.

    It's best to drag the handles into approximate locations:


    Then attach to geometry:


    This is the preferred way to do it. 


    Please leave solidworks behind and learn onshape.


  • adrian_vlzkzadrian_vlzkz Member Posts: 153 PRO
    @billy2, not complaining about the current method in Onshape, just asking for extended capability to meet our design needs.  Your example assumes the same as why they closed the IR, does not capture the intent.

     And we are trying to leave SWx that's why we are asking for this missing use case.

    Adrian V.
    CAD Engineering Manager
  • S1monS1mon Member Posts: 182 PRO
    edited September 28
    It's nice to know that I can get some of the "from vertex" "to vertex" functionality that I'm used to from Solidworks.

    However, the current system doesn't let me model in draft the way that I've been doing it in Solidworks. I use a ton of extrude from vertex with draft. The draft hinges from the plane which is parallel to the sketch plane that contains the vertex. In Onshape the draft hinges from the sketch plane regardless of the other settings. I like to sketch a lot on the default planes and only create other planes when I absolutely have to (lofts etc). The Onshape way forces me to create extra planes or mate connectors and/or draft features.

    Other things missing (compared with Solidworks):
    • no draft option on an extruded surface
    • no option to extrude along a vector other than normal to the sketch
  • NeilCookeNeilCooke Moderator, Onshape Employees Posts: 3,938
    Draft extruded surface can be achieved with Ruled Surface 
    Director, Technical Services, EMEAI
  • billy2billy2 Member, OS Professional, Mentor, Developers, User Group Leader Posts: 1,605 PRO
    edited September 29
    @adrian_vlzkz it's good to see you get these guys moving into the future.

    I had a lot of issues with this feature in the beginning and Lou Gallo said that it had a lot of attention from focus groups to develop. He asked me to give it a chance. After about a month of playing with it, it started to sink in.

    Maybe this could help, have both "up to face" reference the same face and then offset the furthest giving you the distance offset you're wanting, you don't have to compute it.




    One thing to remember is the 1st end position has to be further away from the sketch than the 2nd end position.

    Keep pushing them & good luck! If you need some help, let me know.



  • S1monS1mon Member Posts: 182 PRO
    edited September 29
    NeilCooke said:
    Draft extruded surface can be achieved with Ruled Surface 

    Using Ruled Surface accomplishes a lot of what one might want to do with an extruded and drafted surface. It's a decent work around. However, there are no options for extrusion depth or up to a surface or body (let alone offsets from these). The distance parameter of a ruled surface is not the same as the depth parameter of an extrusion.
  • billy2billy2 Member, OS Professional, Mentor, Developers, User Group Leader Posts: 1,605 PRO
    edited September 29
    @S1mon drafted surfaces would be nice. I just add it as a 2nd draft feature.

    I haven't played with ruled surfaces yet and want to. It was a missing puzzle piece and I'm glad it was added.

    Since this thread is turning into a surface want list, how about extrude curve in this direction, and, let's add draft to that.

    I'm not sure we'll ever stop wanting things, OS surfacing is pretty good these days.



  • S1monS1mon Member Posts: 182 PRO
    edited September 29
    billy2 said:
    @S1mon Since this thread is turning into a surface want list, how about extrude curve in this direction, and, let's add draft to that.
    Extruding in a direction with draft is essentially possible with Ruled Surface, but it just doesn't have the depth options of Extrude.


  • adrian_vlzkzadrian_vlzkz Member Posts: 153 PRO
    billy2 said:
    @adrian_vlzkz it's good to see you get these guys moving into the future.

    I had a lot of issues with this feature in the beginning and Lou Gallo said that it had a lot of attention from focus groups to develop. He asked me to give it a chance. After about a month of playing with it, it started to sink in.

    Maybe this could help, have both "up to face" reference the same face and then offset the furthest giving you the distance offset you're wanting, you don't have to compute it.




    One thing to remember is the 1st end position has to be further away from the sketch than the 2nd end position.

    Keep pushing them & good luck! If you need some help, let me know.



    This method doesn't provide a way to enter the desired thickness of the extrude. You have to make the calculations manually or create more ref geometry.
    Adrian V.
    CAD Engineering Manager
  • edward_petrilloedward_petrillo Member Posts: 47 EDU
    I'm not modelling for a living, and I hardly ever encounter surfaces or drafts.  I've settled into a workflow where all of my geometry is defined in sketches on the native planes, and all of my extrudes are "up to vertex" and "up to vertex" (same or opposite direction).  No "magic numbers" (numerical values) in my feature dialogues, so I can read all of the relevant dimensions in the sketches.  I avoid "up to face"  because maybe that face will disappear down the line.  The result is I'm opening and editing the sketches more often than the features.  One exception:  "up to part"  can be very useful in certain situations.  

    If I ever dipped my toe into Featurescript, the first thing I'd probably write is a stripped-down Extrude with nothing but inputs for the sketch regions and the two vertices.  That would save me lots of mouse clicks!
  • S1monS1mon Member Posts: 182 PRO
    I'm not modelling for a living, and I hardly ever encounter surfaces or drafts.  I've settled into a workflow where all of my geometry is defined in sketches on the native planes, and all of my extrudes are "up to vertex" and "up to vertex" (same or opposite direction).  No "magic numbers" (numerical values) in my feature dialogues, so I can read all of the relevant dimensions in the sketches.  I avoid "up to face"  because maybe that face will disappear down the line.  The result is I'm opening and editing the sketches more often than the features.  One exception:  "up to part"  can be very useful in certain situations.  
    I'm glad I'm not the only one that likes working this way. Since a sketch is solved all at once, it's really easy to go into the sketch and change a dimensioning scheme, whereas a plane offset from a plane offset from a plane is a recipe for disaster.
  • S1monS1mon Member Posts: 182 PRO
    So here's some interesting behavior... you can extrude multiple sketches at once in the same extrude feature. The sketches do not have to be coplanar, and don't even have to be on a parallel plane. They do extrude in the direction of the first sketch. This adds some interesting possibilities to do extrudes in a direction without it being normal to a sketch. In the screenshot, Extrude 2 is using Sketch 2 and Sketch 3, but all the material is being added in the direction normal to Sketch 2. The circle sketched on the chamfer is producing an elliptical cross-section protrusion.


  • billy2billy2 Member, OS Professional, Mentor, Developers, User Group Leader Posts: 1,605 PRO
    @adrian_vlzkz I think this is the same behavior that SW has, although there are more picks.

    I want a 10mm  hole at a location specified face of rev1:


    10mm entered and 10mm shown:



  • billy2billy2 Member, OS Professional, Mentor, Developers, User Group Leader Posts: 1,605 PRO
    @S1mon that is interesting, I'm trying to figure out how to put that to use.


  • billy2billy2 Member, OS Professional, Mentor, Developers, User Group Leader Posts: 1,605 PRO
    edited October 3
    I got a chance to play with ruled surfaces this weekend and really like them. After loft, ruled surfaces are my tool of choice and I've been wanting them since the beginning of OS.

    Here's a simple example of ruled surfaces:

    * I have a non-planar parting line where the part needs to be split for 2 mold halves
    * 7 features and 1 cleanup feature
    * it's extremely robust and creates a well formed manifold



    Then someone comes along and wants to make a changes:

    * they change the size, curvatures & thickness
    * can your model handle changes?



    The simple anatomy using ruled surfaces:

    * it starts with a surface shape containing compound curvatures
    * then you create ruled surfaces for the top & bottom
    * then you fill the top & bottom
    * then I added a loft to form cleaner outer curvature



    Surfaces used to create manifold:

    * this manifold contains no slivers, shortened edges and gives you a clean part that can be used for downstream manufacturing
    * some surfaces are just scaffolding for other surfaces which is typical for surface modeling, you build surfaces to create surfaces
    * you can control complex shapes and capture design intent that'll speed development due to a clean b-rep manifold



    The most important step:

    This model is driven from a compound curvature surface and in this model it's declared as a datum stating that it's driving everything in this model. Datums don't have to be flat planes in parametric solid models. I think I'm mixing up forum threads, sorry, datums are important. 

    Having worked on 100's of injection modeled designs, this complex datum is always missing. To recreate it from trimmed faces is almost impossible and you never know if you have it right. All translations can give you solids and surfaces. Please include this datum in your dataset for the next guy.

    Also, if you're creating injection molded parts, use surfaces. Even if it's for datum definitions only, your models will be clearer and better formed. Pushing geometry to their extremes in a solid model only creates sliver surfaces and issues making the geometry un-usable for subsequent manufacturing operations.



  • billy2billy2 Member, OS Professional, Mentor, Developers, User Group Leader Posts: 1,605 PRO
    @adrian_vlzkz probably the simplest way to move past this issue, it's quite simple, it's easy and it's available now.

    Have @Evan_Reese write you a feature script that does exactly what you need. That's what feature script does and as good as Evan is, he could write it less time than we've spent creating this post.


  • Evan_ReeseEvan_Reese Member Posts: 1,003 PRO
    billy2 said:
    @adrian_vlzkz probably the simplest way to move past this issue, it's quite simple, it's easy and it's available now.

    Have @Evan_Reese write you a feature script that does exactly what you need. That's what feature script does and as good as Evan is, he could write it less time than we've spent creating this post.


    Haha, thanks @billy2. Flattering but probably false. I bet @Alex_Kempen could though.

    Evan Reese / Principal and Industrial Designer with Ovyl
    Website: ovyl.io
    Instagram: @evan.reese.designs
  • Alex_KempenAlex_Kempen Member Posts: 197 EDU
    I've been summoned! Funnily enough, I do have a FeatureScript capable of doing exactly what @adrian_vlzkz has described - it's called Plate extrude, and it's part of my larger suite of FeatureScripts aimed at optimizing the creation of 2D plates. Notably, Plate extrude lets you choose the start plane of your extrude irrespective of the defining sketch plane, and it also has useful options like symmetric up to and they ability to extrude separately (which extrudes each face as a new part, even if it touches other extruded faces).
    You can find plate extrude and my other plate suite features here:
    https://cad.onshape.com/documents/2c2b49357f3f1a232881256a/w/6258e1943ecedc8606542dd7/e/78e9b9148efe7163309beca0


  • billy2billy2 Member, OS Professional, Mentor, Developers, User Group Leader Posts: 1,605 PRO
    @Alex_Kempen amazing, that didn't take long. 




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