Assembly Documentation

caradon

bill said:

Pete-

Thanks for the story. The way I see it, the drawing isn't a truth and is wrong. There's only one truth, the model.

The model is the truth, but the drawing is the ugly truth.
I still wouldn't be able to push Onshape in our organization without drw capability.

At the same time, it bothers me endlessly that I spend WAY more time on drafting properly than on actually modeling in 3D. It just doesn't feel right.
I agree that in the end PMI & MBD will (have to) win out, but we're a long way off from that...

Dries

pete_yodis

Agreed Dries.  I don't think we're that far off, though.  Within 5 years it might begin to become more accepted.  Much more intelligent inspection will push it further...I can see within 10 years it becoming a bit more of the norm.  Here's to hoping.  I think Onshape could enable some awesome things with regards to tolerance analysis, etc... all based off a model and using the massive compute capability we will be sitting on top of.  I think we need to expand the horizons a bit more because of the platform that Onshape will be on. 

brucebartlett

Interesting what Solidworks are doing here. MBD - Model Base Dimensions. Is this the future?

pete_yodis

@Bruce Yeah, they are going in that direction.... but I think they are wrong to try to charge additional money on top of your current SolidWorks subscription.  They are looking too greedy and out of touch with the way things will progress in the future.  I would have been thrilled to see it included in the base package at no additional cost.  This has been the norm for the new SolidWorks.  It is more Dassault like - but more overreaching and out of touch.  I think they use our subs money, develop a new product that we then have to pay for, then raise subs money on that new product as well.  What did our subs money really get us - not really the best of the enhancements I suppose, it paid for development of a tool that we then have to buy again.  I don't think its smart long term business sense. 

MBD is now and has been an ASME (Y 14.41) standard for a while.  This has been worked on for quote a while.  DOD, aerospace, and auto are all looking at moving more aggressively in this direction because it ultimately costs less and leads to fewer errors.  I've read several places that some contracts will now require that the technical data package be formatted in this manner.

Tolerance analysis software, CAM software, and inspection software (both on machine and off machine) that can utilize this information is where industry will trend.  It's so much more efficient in the long haul.

brucebartlett

I certainly can see the benefit's of the MBD and ASME for components manufactured with computer based technology involved. When I started work, back in 1995, (20 year's last week) we were using iges files to build tooling from and I remember thinking that the drawings were almost redundant. I am yet to see it the same way for fabrication, where the 3d model isn't the main source for the information, as it is with CNC technology. This may change over time with computers or tablets at the work stations for access to model info but as I see it now paper still will live on in this industry.

billy2

Hey Bruce-

Do you happen to have a Pro/E v1 part file? Guess what, it's in there, it's been there for a long time.

It's always been put in the part and show in the drawing. 

SW users were always afraid of using "insert model items" and this concept was kinda lost, this is nothing new.
SW won't define this, it's too late for them.

We need a translation standard that moves this meta data along, step needs to be updated. I still don't know the tap thread when I export a file and have to go off of the tap drill size, crazy.

Hope onshape will re-define this, it's a long stretch, a lot of guys still want to use dxf. 

abefeldman

As many of you have said, drawings will continue to remain an important part of the design process for some time, however there's no reason why we can't start streamlining the process and paving the way for a paperless future.  @bill put it well when he said the model is the only truth.  Have any of you used MBD tools?  How would you imagine such a feature to operate in Onshape?  Where in your design workflow would you want to define tolerances or GD&T?  

pete_yodis

@AbeFeldman Off the top of my head, like a documentation layer over the model that could be populated with information or not - like an old fashion transparency for an overhead projector for us older guys, lol.  Haven't thought it through too much.

pete_yodis

We could probably start by looking at Anark, SolidWorks, and offerings by Siemens to see how they approached it.

Ed_Danzer

I don't see solid models as the best way to provide information for end user manuals.

I don't think having a display in the weld shop is an option. Someone will blow air arc spatter or direct a hand grinder on it and destroy it. We have enough problems with key boards and mice in the machine shop. Touch screens are a joke in a job shop environment so don't even suggest them, been there and tried that.

With SolidWorks and their problems with old assemblies blowing up I don't see using their models and MBD as the only documentation of a product. About every 5 years you may spend several hours fixing what was good in the version prior on a large part count assembly.

pete_yodis

Not every customer is a weld shop.  Drawings are always an option.  I don't think anyone is saying this is an either or solution.  Who says you need touch screens.  If a SolidWorks assembly model blows up, then so does the drawing.... so its a moot point.

brucebartlett

EdDanzer said:

I don't think having a display in the weld shop is an option. Someone will blow air arc spatter or direct a hand grinder on it and destroy it. We have enough problems with key boards and mice in the machine shop. Touch screens are a joke in a job shop environment so don't even suggest them, been there and tried that.

Totally with you here, "Old Mate the welder" is not going to want to remove his welding gloves after he finds his covered up ipad, to spin the model on the screen just to see where the next weld goes or check a dim. However they sometimes look at the 3d model for assembly detail or different prospective when tacking complex frames. I have also sent screen shots to welders via text.

pete_yodis

What about a weld Hemet and augmented reality, like magic leap or hololense. Never have to take anything off or touch anything.

pete_yodis

IF, and a big if, devices like HoloLens and magic leap do provide real value and are not just the latest hype (I don't think they are) - then I think having the PMI as an overlay or 3D layer on top of the model would be a good way to go ( I was only half kidding about the overlay with an overhead projector...).  Potentially only that PMI or annotation layer could be augmented on top of the real physical part.  Microsoft showed off exactly that kind of concept with HoloLens.  http://www.microsoft.com/microsoft-hololens/en-us?ocid=ASPEN_SEM_bing_&cid=ASPEN_SEM_bing_

pete_yodis

Imagine a physical part outfitted with QR code datum targets (3 of them) that serve both to register the physical part with the viewing tool, and also provide the URL to the 3D definition.  Physical parts could have the definition overlaid on top by connecting the worlds in this manner.

pete_yodis

Aha...  And here it is...  Do it Onshape.

http://www10.mcadcafe.com/blogs/re-use-your-cad/2015/02/15/solidworks-world-2015-focus-on-mbd/  Look near the bottom where it talks about projecting PMI right onto the physical part.  Closes the loop.  Ties the virtual definition to the physical.

billy2

Pete- I had to search on mbd because the link didn't work properly. I found the article.

Sounds nice, anything to rid this world from 2d drawings. I question pdf as a standard having bricked 2 windows computers because of embedded viruses distributed with pdf. She didn't mention attaching virus's to the pdf that could kill your entire project/computer.

I think whoever developed this needs to go back to the drawing board and re-think this solution or you better keep your virus shield up to date.

pete_yodis

@Bill Yes, I don't think PDF or eDrawings is the right medium either. I was more pointing to the fact that Blake Reves is working to make eDrawings a platform that will display PMI directly over a physical part. Augmented reality I think will arrive quicker than most think. I don't think this is pie in the sky stuff. I'm a bit of a dreamer, I suppose, but this looks to be within the realm of possible and pretty soon. This was just tweeted out...

http://m.bizjournals.com/washington/blog/techflash/2015/02/on-the-next-step-for-virtual-reality-it-s-all-in.html?r=full 

billy2

I'm with you buddy.

Was thinking about adapting a Kinect that could watch my fingers allowing me to push holes through plates and squeeze things to size. I find it difficult to return to my limited mouse after using a multi-gesture ipad. 

You are absolutely right about a change coming soon. Someone's going to share a box of crayons with those of us who only use pencils.

pete_yodis

@Bill You'd like this video.  It's from a while ago, but shows the building blocks to what's coming - without truly giving away what they were really up to (HoloLens).  By the way, I read HoloLens will accept mouse input control as well.  It has to, as all Windows 10 universal apps are supposedly supported with HoloLens.  Love the crayon quote.  We're about to step out of Pleasantville.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVhgUs3_RGU

billy2

That's really a cool video. Holographic displays, I thought it was only a scientific theory, looks pretty close to reality.

Do you think if I design something heavy I'll grow muscles?

 

pete_yodis

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but it was a decent read - of course it confirms my confirmation bias...

http://www.iotjournal.com/articles/view?12718

devon_sowell

Bill remember when I worked for Hewlett Packard and we ran a couple of projects with no 2D Drawings? All the R&D machinists onsite had seats of SolidWorks and we annotated the 3D models that we sent them. The productivy and lead times were amazing.

billy2

Yes I remember Devon, good to see you here.

devon_sowell

Same here Bill. Let's get together soon, please email me at sowelldevon@gmail.com if you like,lunch on me :-)

billy2

will do!

fish tacos by the beach!

pete_yodis

@Bill Now you're just rubbing it in on those of us in the Northeast US.

billy2

Sorry, didn't mean to express it that way.

It rained here last weekend, hope that makes you feel better.

Ben_

Bill, you suck... LOL, it has been -20C to -30C (-4F to -22F) here for the last week it rained here at about 30 thousand feet then froze to little white nightmares before hitting the ground...

billy2

Ben-
Fish tacos were fabulous, wish you were here!