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Comments
Well, I would like to drive Tesla - for me it would be enough to accelerate 0-100km/h in 5sec and top 200km/h and I could pay $30 000 for that.
It would be technically possible to deliver me such car and it would bring them money.
So I'm asking for middle tier, something I can afford - will I get it? No. Because they have something others don't and there is price to pay for development.
Same thing here, the price tag for developing something like Onshape is enormous. And like every other free beta software, there will be a day when developer needs to start earning money.
I don't see a problem with evaluating using public space, evaluating is testing and work is work - there is a difference.
Of course I'm bit concerned if they someday send me email that pro plan new price is $5000 per year. But I feel confident as they didn't change anything for current pro plans, for us it's still $100 / month even if paid monthly. And they have stated few times that $1200/year is the price that should be enough to keep things running.
Ok, no problems for early pro adopters.. unless your working like me, pro plan is for designer who does 95% of work, then there are free plans for suppliers, sales, support, production, customers etc. who need to access and make small adjustment / testing for models - that 5%.
I did ask about this and free users are not able to edit docs even though they have been shared by pro user. That is because there was some idiots trying to save money by violating this perfect environment using single pro account to assign actual work into multiple free users. Damn you!
How can Onshape come up with rules to prevent violating but still allow editing for free users if doc is shared with them by pro?
Or should they introduce small company pack with 1+x license where one has pro plan and rest can only edit private docs that are shared with them?
Any other thoughts from paid users?
There is no "corporate gag order." I do not have much to add to this thread. We understand some users are disappointed. There are many CAD users with different needs. Onshape has chosen to focus on two distinct markets: Design Professionals and Open Source/Hobbyists who use public data. For these users, we believe our offerings present tremendous value and are priced extremely competitively. We recognize that there are some hobbyists who desire private data, and at this time we may not be a fit.
As a free user so far, I can't complain - I believe in TANSAAFL.
However, Pro users have now lost the functionality to fully collaborate with free users on their private docs.
I will have to search the forum, but I recall an Onshape employee stating that they anticipate something like a small company with one pro account supporting several occasional light users with free accounts to be a valid use case.
I am a long term Solidworks user. I have designs that I have shared publicly, and have a speaker design thread on a DIY forum with over 0.5 million views. I recently registered with Onshape hoping I would be able to start a opensource project introducing many new users to parametric cad. I now find that I will not be able to keep my designs private until I am ready to release them to the public. I am all for open source collaboration but feel that the loss of any private documents will stifle the motivation for new users to learn a new CAD system. If a user can not secure any privacy or IP on anything that they draw in Onshape, without paying for a full priced subscription to secure access, then I think that they will be looking for another CAD system to learn.
And also, as I have said many times before, I think the current Pro plan is very good value - provided you make money on your work. If not, then it isn't justifiable. For me personally, I don't mind 95% of my work to be public, but I want to have some privacy. I could of course choose to use Onshape for those 95% and then learn something else for the last 5%, but I don't want multiple systems. I want Onshape, and I want to pay for a little privacy. One example (and I have told you this before) is when I create designs that are personal, with family names on them and such. While it represents no real danger to have those out in the open, I'm not really comfortable with it.
They obviously have not figured out a way to do this accurately and tracking down these bugs and fixing the user's account is taking a lot of there developers time and slowing down how fast new features (like sheet metal, etc.) are introduced.
Making a new paid middle tier option with a limited number of private documents would be even worse for them. People that pay money for a product expect it to work correctly and to have problems fixed "right now", so it would be taking even more of their time working on this.
Without the limited private document option, they can focus their priorities on new features like sheet metal, etc.
They could also continue working to try and fix the document count bug as a lower priority, working on it when they have time, and eventually come out with a middle tier plan once this has been worked out.
I know I'm a Pro user and not really affected by this, but I still see their Free offering as a great deal even with the public document limitation. There aren't too many professional grade CAD programs that offer something like that without some type of limitation - try to get a free (legal) full version of SolidWorks, Catia, or Creo for example.
PhD, Mechanical Engineering, Stanford University
I think @robert_morris is probably on to something with the issues counting documents, but that only makes me curious how one could have a database of documents associated with each user without being able to easily count them.
PhD, Mechanical Engineering, Stanford University
I am disappointed that private documents will be dropped from the free plan because I assumed we would always have some sort of private document capability when OS confirmed some time ago that we would always have a free plan. No doubt that was naive on my part but I really feel more than a little used and led astray by past OS promises about the perpetual free plan. I'm especially upset about having to replicate my private documents in another CAD program. The advantages of cloud computing mean nothing if you lose access to your data. I let maintenance lapse on my previous CAD program (Geomagic Design) earlier this year but at least I can still access the 2.5 GB of designs I developed in that program. That won't be the case with Onshape in 6 weeks and now I get to spend time replicating the design work all over again in another product.
@3dcad - don't get too comfortable with the feeling that the sort of pricing you are used to will not be substantially increased in future. Maybe you don't remember, but Alibre promised many years ago that users (at that time) would never have their maintenance fees increased above $150 or $175 per year. They are currently at $US430 per year and there have been no updates or signs of developer interest there in more than a year. Marketing folks have no problem making promises or insinuations that they never plan (or are unable) to keep.
I downloaded Fusion 360 yesterday and will give that a serious try now, though I suppose that their free/low cost plan will change much as OS has at some point in the future.
By being remarkably open about their system and by sharing and commenting on our contributions to these fora, Onshape has encouraged us all to kid ourselves that we are, in some small capacity, part of the organisation. However much we feel it, this is not the case, Onshape is a business fully entitled to define (and redefine) its own business model [1]. Those of us who are part of the free scheme are the sweetshop customers who have discovered that our favourite flavour of sweetie is about to be withdrawn; this isn't an uncommon business scenario. Of course we are disappointed, of course we would like the status quo to be restored, but why would it be? Onshape, in a business sense, owes us nothing (morally possibly but legally and contractually I doubt it). I am a hobbiest/modeller who thought that, by allowing me to have some private documents, Onshape was promising me some long term IP protection; in retrospect this wasn't the case; more fool me!
Where to go now? For me after reviewing the 'opposition', albeit briefly, I shall continue to use Onshape - a system I have bought into technically and where I have climbed much of the learning ladder. I think, as I have mentioned elsewhere, that for my humble purposes I shall be able to hide my files in plain sight amidst the many thousands of public files - for the time being anyway.
I am disappointed with but, in retrospect, unsurprised by this change in policy; this is Onshape's business, I have paid the cube root of nothing to be part of it, it has been a good and interesting ride and I have to accept that this part of the ride is over.
[1] I am not qualified to express an opinion as to whether this change is good sense or folly - so I won't even try.
The real problem is not the cost of the storage, if you extrapolate forward... all the free public use documents will end up a jumbled up pile of half finished, projects by people who just wanted to dabble with some 3D CAD for a while. Now those files still take up space on a data storage device somewhere and OS can just buy more space as the "Junk Pile" grows over time, as long as the price they charge Pro users continues to support the OS development team, and storage infrastructure costs for the "Junk Pile".
The real question is for those of us on a thinner wallet is how do we adapt to this new paradigm, lets discuss some ideas how that might be doable for the average current free plan user.
1. Create a public document and download your project document and store it locally in a state you decide, then continue to modify the existing free public document to make it more unrecognizable with bad dimensions, missing or extra features, multiple branches, ... etc. Essentially more incomplete, wrong, broken "junk" for the "Junk Pile" that just continues to stack up.
2. Import your locally stored correct / current version as a new document and move on with the new changes, again this can be repeated as often as necessary, or convenient. So this method essentially gives the average single user/ hobbyist free user complete control over individual designs, you just have to manage your own files.
3. The "Junk Pile" gets really big to the point nobody wants to go digging through it, looking at something that is half baked. Like others have pointed out you have your project hiding plain sight, but with out all the correct details, or changes, so why would anyone ever try and sort it out only to hit a dead end of something that may or may not have ever have worked.
4. This is all well and good until you need to start collaboration with another person or team, and at that point is when its probably feasible to pay to upgrade. But using a file sharing service to keep the current "good" version updated with a small team could also be employed with this same technique, but not nearly as efficiently as with paying for the Pro version features.
Now that I have postulated on the probable work around to these changes, I wonder how long it will be before we see some "other changes" to prevent this, if the OS people really are just reducing overhead costs then they have no reason to prevent this use case.
Now all that being said, I am not really trying to subvert OS as company at all, as I believe that the product and concept of full cloud CAD has place. But as a disgruntled Solidworks user who recently paid my subscription invoice for the next broken version due out soon, I just cant justify paying 90% of that for OS as it is right now, considering OS doesn't do 90% of what Solidworks does today.
While I doubt that it will happen, but it seems to me there is sizable group of OS users that would be willing to pay $30/month for or so for the "Pro-Lite" plan that could be graduated based on something easier to monitor such as logged in online access time. As an example for for that $30/ month you get 30 hours of logged in time, and then could get billed based on actual usage above that to some additional rate up to the Pro level rate. Solves the whole data storage fee model by something easier to monitor, track, and measure.
Please.
Thank you.
I referred to Tesla as a product that everybody want's (Onshape with Private docs) but only few can afford. I'm sorry if that thought didn't open for everyone.
For example sales ask for new product - designer creates new product and share with sales - sales make few changes (like adjust certain parameters) and share with customer - if they get green light, share with production who makes some adjustment for better productivity - then share to product support who might add some tab for support purpose.
And another example is that I create doc for customer who is about to order my products. They can use whatever cad but they have also free plan of Onshape.
In the beginning they upload dwgs, floor plans, step files or whatever needed for quote. Then we proceed with models I create and they can always follow with a single link shared in the beginning.
At some point I might go in wrong direction and they can make a small fix or upload more stuff to push me back on track - a lot easier than explaining on the phone.
I can also create options for customer to review as they can change parameters (and hopefully configurations in near future).
In the end of project, they can download project files and I will stop sharing.
Now we are back to email attachments and controlling what version has been uploaded =(
In this perspective Onshape lowered also the value of Pro plan as you can't have free plans supporting paid plan to get more employees / customers into live cad model. So we are back to one guy editing models in the basement according to others comments and companies remain with only few people with cad knowledge.
I don't see getting temporary pro license as a solution, we are not going to pay cad licenses for our customers and they are not paying for another license if they are not planning to change their primary cad system at this point. It is not matter of $100 or so, it's matter of principles and policies.
@jon_hirschtick
What downsides can you see in allowing free users editing / adding stuff into pro plan owned documents other than some users exploiting the system?
In my opinion this added great value for pro plan and was one of the reasons I decided to go pro at early stage.
comment as a pro user: less comfortable, much lost confidence.
if they are able to downgrade the free user plan, they will also be able to do it with the pro plan the same way some day - if enterprise will be what they concentrate on or an investor has plans or whatever. just took a look to the redesigned website and the blog.
we are only a small company with small projects, but we also have to deliver at time. we have no second CAD installed, do not have the know how to use another, not the time to evaluate and setup, so we are all in and extradited. makes me feel a bit unsafe.
also, they send only their director of marketing to the battle, the rest stays far behind the lines. not trustworthy. nice gamble.
you pointed to some violation: i am forced to do my really private 2% of my free account in my pro account now with this modell. perhaps it will be punished somedays. but what they do is send the small man to starvation at the end.
a company with 169 mill $ raised and all the smart people should be able to set up a process which can calculate some numbers of private documents or storage and to bill them monthly. or the generosity to participate them with the free model as it has been - or at least 1 private document.
The big concern for Pro users is this : given the changes that have been made rapidly to the free user basis do you have confidence that Onshape will maintain the pro charge at $125 a month once it has Sheet Metal , surfacing etc mastered. Surely the more likely scenario is rapid upward increases over the next couple of years to around the $250 a month mark. A breach of faith has occured @darren_henry @jon_hirschtick .
We will start evaluating Fusion360 next week.
Come on guys, put this to rest by giving us the political rundown also. I think we deserve it.
you're a brave man getting in the middle of this......
Any organisation that is capable of producing anything like parametric CAD must be able to come up with plan and system to manage these things without putting more than negligible R&D resources into it! If not, then the people in charge and implementing these are not worth their salt.
Purely an excuse!
I've been trying to get OS to advertise and offset their costs. Can OS sell the names of the maker universe to offset development costs? How about a large banner streaming nut & bolts ads to non-paying people? My favorite, pop up lunch specials of local restaurants in your maker community and the charge restuarants a finders fee?
Google is offset by selective advertising, but OS doesn't want this. OS wants/needs a community of supporters.
The internet can't be free. The biggest issue with the cloud, everyone wants it to be free.
Oh snap! 3dcad, I didn't want to get involved with this,
Now, the suggestion to obfuscate documents will most likely be quite effective (after all, there is an ocean of crap already on Onshape), but what does Onshape have to say about such a practice? Will it be met with improved searching capabilies, so that searching for all documents by a specific user can be done? @cody_armstrong or @darren_henry, is this something you can comment on?
Quite frankly- I am surprised onshape is priced as low as it is. Tremendous value in my opinion.
Additionally, I am encouraged that onshape is focused on the enterprise / professional user.
The upside here is professional users can evaluate onshape for free and then decide to purchase. This is way better than a one hour webinar "demo" with the sales rep.
I think everyone should put down the pitchfork and be grateful for the opportunity to use a full functioning license for free. Need private docs...upgrade at any time.
Reading through this thread reminds me of the whining, red-faced kid in the grocery store screaming at their parents because they want something and they want it now!
Some people here should apologize to @jon_hirschtick
Bottom line:
I really like Onshape, so I am sad to have to turn elsewhere now, as I feel this is a really unwise move from Onshape.