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Things that frustrate/annoy me in Onshape (by a newbie)
john_smith077
Member Posts: 175 ✭✭✭
I am new to Onshape. I have been using it for a few hours and I am already finding several things are intensely frustrating!
Because:
a) I am new and
b) because I have recently been evaluating other 3D modelers (e.g. Sketchup, Fusion 360, DesignSpark Mechanical etc)
I may bring something useful with me.
Rather than vent everywhere I thought I would start this thread. So here goes:
FRUSTATION 01. View Rotations
Problem
Yes, isometric itself view is fine but as soon as you rotate off it (e.g. using Right-click n drag) the whole model is at an weird angle. Surely we all want to see the horizon... horizontal and the verticals vertical. (i.e. I want to rotate around a vertical axis only - why would I ever want anything else?)
Diametric and Trimetric suffer from the same problem.
Worse, no amount of rotating of the cube gets the Top plane horizontal. And worse again I cant work out how to rotate the object using the right mouse button so as to get the Top plan horizontal.
Before I feel sea-sick (it happens!)... I then R-click (Right-click) on a plane and select on "View Normal To" (or click on the cube). But now everything is 2D, and I cant really see what's going on. Do now I R-click and drag *slightly* to see what is going on.
... but count the clicks! About 5 just to get a 'sensible' view of what's going on. This is driving me NUTS! Actually I don't care if there is a fix for this deep within the system, even if so the defaults need to be better.
Suggestion
Have a look at what Fusion 360 does: When you mouse-over the view cube (top right) a little home button appears. With one click you are taken to what is a Parametric view... BUT when you rotate (using a slightly tortuous Shift plus Middle mouse click n drag)
a) Rotates the model about the point you selected
b) It it keeps the verticals vertical
Fusion's view is a joy to use. Onshape is a nightmare.
Too many words but you get my point?
Because:
a) I am new and
b) because I have recently been evaluating other 3D modelers (e.g. Sketchup, Fusion 360, DesignSpark Mechanical etc)
I may bring something useful with me.
Rather than vent everywhere I thought I would start this thread. So here goes:
FRUSTATION 01. View Rotations
Problem
Yes, isometric itself view is fine but as soon as you rotate off it (e.g. using Right-click n drag) the whole model is at an weird angle. Surely we all want to see the horizon... horizontal and the verticals vertical. (i.e. I want to rotate around a vertical axis only - why would I ever want anything else?)
Diametric and Trimetric suffer from the same problem.
Worse, no amount of rotating of the cube gets the Top plane horizontal. And worse again I cant work out how to rotate the object using the right mouse button so as to get the Top plan horizontal.
Before I feel sea-sick (it happens!)... I then R-click (Right-click) on a plane and select on "View Normal To" (or click on the cube). But now everything is 2D, and I cant really see what's going on. Do now I R-click and drag *slightly* to see what is going on.
... but count the clicks! About 5 just to get a 'sensible' view of what's going on. This is driving me NUTS! Actually I don't care if there is a fix for this deep within the system, even if so the defaults need to be better.
Suggestion
Have a look at what Fusion 360 does: When you mouse-over the view cube (top right) a little home button appears. With one click you are taken to what is a Parametric view... BUT when you rotate (using a slightly tortuous Shift plus Middle mouse click n drag)
a) Rotates the model about the point you selected
b) It it keeps the verticals vertical
Fusion's view is a joy to use. Onshape is a nightmare.
Too many words but you get my point?
Tagged:
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Comments
Onshape does rotate around the point you select if your mouse is over the model. The rotation method we use is the "classic" method of 3D model rotation - to get a slight isometric, the trick is to move to the left/right first then follow up with an up/down movement - it does takes practice for it to become second nature.
In Fusion 360 they have "Free Orbit" which is the same as rotation in Onshape and "Constrained Orbit" which is what you are referring to - SolidWorks has the same, called "Rotate about scene floor" - and I agree with you, it's nice.
Best place to vent about missing functionality is through the feedback tool under the help drop-down - that way your enhancement requests will get logged officially. Forums should only really be used for help.
Thanks for taking Onshape for a test drive and all feedback, good or bad, is always welcome (but please use the feedback tool!)
Peter - Yes, feedback from seasoned users is valuable - extremely valuable. However I disagree with you 100%, because it is a completely different type [**] of feedback.
Please remember the process of acquiring new users. In the early stages we users may be evaluating a large number of modelling tools and usually we won't possibly have time to learn them all properly.
The result is that a single issue - something seemingly small like poor menu layout or hateful view control [and fwiw, Onshape is the worst of any of the c.10 tools I have looked at!!] can very easily put a new user off the product forever.
This is not because we don't think that there will be a workaround of some sort - there normally is - but mainly because we think that the DNA of the entire product may be infused with such poor thinking.
Neil - I see your point about rotation about a point. And how if you do R-click/drag vertical first, then R-click/drag horizontal it's fine.
However I am completely unrepentant - that's still a LOT of clicks and special stuff to remember that isn't obvious to the new user. If the newbie user goes Click ==> Isometric ==> R-click/drag horizontal first they will be cussing and swearing, believe me!
[ASIDE: I still can't get the Named Views functionality to work - not even after watching an explainer video. Does it actually work?]
Conclusion:
I think what it boils down to is that rotation needs to be 'gravity sensitive' and things should (by default at least) only rotate about a vertical axis (i.e. rotate about the scene if you will).
Yes, I am more than happy to use the Feedback tool. However if I just use the Feedback too will anyone tell me the work around? (if there is one).
[** In Lean Startup business theory, any such feedback is much more likely to be from "Early Adopter" type of users (i.e. users who like to experiment with new stuff, and who take pride in being cutting edge, who tolerate a few bugs and a bit of complexity...) and much less likely to be of the "Mainstream" type users (i.e. users who just want to get the job done fast and say "don't waste my time"). And Lean Startup theory dictates that there is vastly more money to be made from Mainstream users - as they are both more numerous, more wealthy and more loyal... Whereas Early Adopters are extremely fickle and will drop you very easily!]
e.g. 3DConnexion make some nice looking ones - e.g. "SpaceNavigator for Notebooks" is quite well reviewed on Amazon... But at £79, that's quite a lot of money for me (particularly if it's mainly just because the modelling software in question lacks a sense of 'gravity' !)
https://forum.onshape.com/discussion/2358/a-re-introduction#latest
https://forum.onshape.com/discussion/1920/why-cant-i-get-along-with-orbiting-in-onshape/p1
In my theory, if you come up with a completely new cad, you should keep the basic things familiar to people who will most likely be your paying customers in the beginning. Then after all standard features are done you could add an option to try new view mode and maybe add test run for new users to select which one they prefer.
I like Onshape viewing since it's familiar for me after SolidEdge / Alibre / Geomagic. When doing some actual work I use 3d mouse, not just because it makes viewing flawless but it is same difference as any work with one hand vs two hands - while one hand moves/turns the model, other hand picks the right tool and finds the place to work. I like to invest in having good tools to make my work, it makes my work more appealing and keeps me smiling through long days at office/factory.
ps. What are you working with? Did you manage to get started creating something for your work with Onshape?
Fwiw, I just tried Sketchup again. Center-button click/hold causes Orbit and then when I draw random circles on the screen... ==> vertical is still vertical no matter what you do!
Likewise in 123D Design - Right-mouse click n hold to Orbit " " " " "..... ==> vertical is still vertical no matter what you do!
IMHO, both are MUCH more intuitive that Onspace. The only time you get slightly unexpected orbiting results is when your model is not bang center of the screen - and THAT is where Fusion 360 has it right. By default it rotates the model about the origin OR if you hit Shift middle-click (without drag) it puts a little orange ball onto your model and then all the next Shift-Middle-clicks WITH drag orbits you around you model around the little orange ball.
Surely Fusion 360 has the best solution. Why can't we agree that Onshape should do the same (or else something v similar)? What am I missing?
As designers of manned satellites have discovered, the human mind is wired with a need to know where vertical is.
@john_smith077 - your enhancement request has been logged and will be evaluated for inclusion in a future release.
Sorry no, I disagree with this view 100%. This thread has not been time wasted. Before this thread is shut down, my feeling is that we have very nearly reached agreement that:
1. 'turntable rotating' should be possible (at the very least)
2. 'turntable rotating' should probably be the default - (anyone strongly disagree?)
3. @3dcad has said that spinning in all directions is important to him/her - so what I would call "Seasickness Mode" (i.e. spinning in all axes) MUST stay possible.
I feel extremely strongly about this issue. No, I do not want to have to live with "Seasickness Mode" that can't be switched off. Yes this is a deal-breaker issue for me.
Onshape has a history of being good at listening to their customers, but they need receive this enhancement request not thinking "well... users disagree about this - maybe it's not important" but rather knowing that what I have listed above is the consensus.
If it is. So is it?
Have you explored all of the options in the view cube? If you click on a face, it will give you that named view...top, bottom, right, left, etc...
Take notice of the arrows as well. If you are in a named view, for example front and then click the left or right arrow on the cube, your view will rotate incrementally about the vertical axis. Top and bottom arrows rotate you about the horizontal axis. Is this what you mean by turntable?
It's already been mentioned to hover over a point on the model to rotate about that point, and I really like how that feels.
As far as going into "Seasickness Mode", that is actually how I prefer to model. Like 3dcad said, I'm also all over the place when modelling, and having a turntable mode would not really help me. If I want that, I click on a face on the cube and use the arrows like I mentioned above.
Right now, the only gripe I have is the inability to assign my middle mouse button to rotate. I honestly can't stand the RMB to rotate method, but it's a small gripe and I can live with it.
I want to be able to freely orbit my model (e.g. using Right-click-drag) so that I view my model:
a) from any compass bearing
AND
b) from from any angle above it or below it
And yet still have any vertical lines stay pointing vertical.
Have you ever used Sketchup, 123D Design or Fusion 360? Their views all work in this way. Down is down and up is up.
The main thing that I am asking for it to be physically able SOMEHOW in Onspace to do a free (i.e. step-less) orbit in the same way as these other applications. And I am increasingly gob-smacked that there seems to be resistance to this.
@john_smith077 I would really appreciate if you wouldn't mention sketchup as comparative software, since it's like telling ms word how good notepad is with text handling.
Explanation: It's just that I recently spent a week of my life doing battle with SU (attempting to get it to do solid modeling). A painful experience (!) albeit not for reasons of viewing/orbiting. Also note: With 2+ million weekly users the must be doing something right.
But yes, point taken
I think we are at crossed purposes. This is obviously a difficult concept to translate into words.
I am not wanting to stop anyone from viewing their parts from any compass bearing, nor from any angle they choose. I simply want to keep vertical lines vertical.
What types of things are you trying to model?
PS - to be fair, I bought a 3D mouse long ago once I knew I would be doing a ton of modeling. It really does make a difference, and using a standard mouse to view a model is now more frustrating because I can't go exactly where I want to in one fluid motion. BUT - I still wouldn't want free rotation to be locked down
I am coming at Onshape having spent a few days on other 3D modelling software. All I can say is that with fresh eyes certain things really leap out at you (me) as seeming intuitive and "clearly the way to do it". Fusion 360's way of orbiting is one of those.
Other things leap out at me as being intensely irritating every single time I use them. Onshape's way of orbiting is one of those.
I'm sorry to labour this point (horribly!), but I need to know if a meeting of minds is ever going to happen here. I need to get a feel for whether if the OS universe is one I'm likely to want to invest many, many hours of my life in. I am testing DNA if you will...
Here is a model in Fusion - Isometric view.
I want to spin it round (as if I were flying around a building) so something like this.
Drag freely with a mouse (using shift-centre-mouse) and whatever you do, the verticals stay vertical.
In OnShape Isometric looks like this. If I then click to rotate the cube using the arrow on the right...
I then get this:
...And click again in the same place, I get this:
So now I try to rotate the model anti-clockwise... and I get this.
It doesn't matter if you use the cube or orbit freely by R-clicking your mouse, it's actually extremely difficult to keep these shapes pointing directly upwards. If the parts were buildings they would be falling over. If they were cups of tea they would be spilling. To me this is a NIGHTMARE.
I just dont get why anyone would prefer the view in the image immediately above n preference to the view below.
My point is that, without using a named view, and without very,. VERY careful use of dragging up and sideways... IN THE CORRECT SEQUENCE, I literally have no idea how to get a view with the overlap between the two objects that I require AND the verticals staying vertical. Whereas in Fusion 360 you just click-drag to get straight to the compass-bearing and height off the ground that you want...
...And bang your're there - with nothing leaning over!
Unlike (I presume) most of the users here, I may not have much 3D modeling experience... but I *DO* start getting seasick when I use either the arrows around the view cube OR usethe free mouse movements in Onshape as soon as the verticals go off vertical.
If some users really want "leaning objects" every time the orbit fine, but please explain why !
Either way surely we should be able somehow to orbit in the manner I describe.
Am I making myself clear? What am I missing?
I tested your method using arrows --> useless.
I can get what I wan't using mouse and I rarely touch 'the cube' in other purpose than looking normal to face.
With 1 min inspection, I noticed that if you click isometric, then continue clicking upper right or left corner again and again model turns (like in turntable) with 90deg steps. Does this behavior keep you on track and not getting seasick
One thing I do hear from you is the use of the word orbit - which I think comes from how you see a CAD model. Some people I know are like you and see the model they are making as an object sitting on a plane that they, the viewer, are moving around like a helicopter/blimp/bird/ect. Nothing wrong with that perspective, but its a little different than what the view system is set up for (in most CAD software i have used). I look at a model as a part floating in space. I, the viewer, am sitting still and moving the model around - just as i would hold a part in my hands on my desk and turn it over to look at it. That is also the way my 3D mouse is setup - when i manipulate the mouse i treat it as manipulating the part. I have used the 3d mouse of a friend of mine who like the "helicopter" type of view control, and i cant use it at all - the model flips in all the wrong directions for me.
So - long story short, try treating the model as an object floating in space, if you can trick your brain into switching perspectives (which I know is tough). Otherwise, I cant stress enough how much utility you could get from a 3D mouse - which can be tuned to your exact preferences. In my book, they are worth the price; especially if, as you say you are, you are going to be doing a ton of CAD work.
> With 1 min inspection, I noticed that if you click isometric, then continue clicking upper right or
> left corner again and again model turns (like in turntable) with 90deg steps. Does this behavior
> keep you on track and not getting seasick
Ah... I knew I must be missing something. [slight blush]
Yes, that is useful. And no, I don't know why I never found it (!)
HOWEVER
a) Those are painfully small targets to click regularly on
b) They are not activated by the arrow keys (it would be useful if the were though! see below)
c) My main complaint is directed to the way Onshape orbits freely when we use of the mouse (i.e. Right-click-drag). i.e. Everything immediately *starts* to tip over. This doesn't matter very much if you only move things slightly with the mouse. But as I have spelled out at length above, IMHO, it's just not as good as it should be. And as a newbie until you've found your workarounds, I contend that it is intensely irritating.
@3dcad, what is your normal way of working:
- How often do you use the view cube?
- Do you prefer to use hotkeys (e.g. shift/1 or shift/7 etc) to go to normal views and then right-click drag very slightly if required.
- Or do you leave the Front / Right / Top planes visible and right-click on them, then "View normal to"
- Do you ever use the keyboard arrow keys?
Either way if nobody stops me, I am going to request that the Left and Right keyboard arrow keys are changed so that for example pressing the Right arrrow key is equivalent to clicking "B." rather than "A."
Personally I would vote for smaller rotations (e.g. half the amount of rotation).
Anyone feel strongly?
But (please-please-please) can we have SOME way of orbitting!
e.g. Why cant we have BOTH modes possible?
I may well buy a 3D mouse at some point, but I am on a tight budget and moreover my spending £80 to fix what I see as a clear problem with Onshape definitely sticks in the throat.
- I use viewcube rarely
- I have assigned certain hotkeys (n) to 3d mouse, I don't use other hotkeys for view manipulation (might learn to use in future)
- I have planes visible most of time
- I use arrow keys rarely, I would like them to turn things smoothly as long as pressed. For me, arrow keys could be 'owned' for turntable mode. It would be nice to create turntable animations with screen recorder and arrow keys.
> could be 'owned' for turntable mode. It would be nice to create turntable animations with screen recorder and arrow keys.
Sounds good to me. But you then get into a debate about how fast the basic turn rate should be. Any thoughts in this?
e.g. If I hold the left hand mouse down for a full second by how many degrees should the model rotate?
On reflection Onshape could do something more sophisticated, and respond to multiple stabs at the keys differently.
e.g. If two or more stabs are done in rapid succession the model could rotate faster, by pre-defined increments.
That way for fine-tuning you could press and hold an arrow key, but for faster turning to known angles you could hit it say 3 times to get 90 degrees. How does that sound?
I feel this would't get in the way, could be discovered by accident, and would be extremely useful when discovered.