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Onshape for frame design, workflow to adopt?

adam_mercieradam_mercier OS Professional Posts: 33 PRO
Hello all,
I'm developping freeride electric bikes frames for a business and while I currentely use Solid Edge ST6 Onshape looks like a very good option for reducing costs! I have been tesing it for a few hours and so far I'm impressed by the 2.5D modelling ability, and totally forgot it was running in browser!



I'm waiting like everyone to see how the drawing module will do.

But now I'm wondering if Onshape would be adequate for some basic frame modelling ?

Thats for exemple what I have been working on in ST6 :


Same thing IRL : 


image

Has anyone here exemples of frame modelling workflow using Onshape?
Best regards, Adam
LMX bikes
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Comments

  • andrew_troupandrew_troup Member, Mentor Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2015
    No, sorry to say, I don't yet have anything closely applicable. However if I had to model something like this, I think I would be modelling solid shapes whose edges represented the centrelines of the frame tubes. That's the simplest way to achieve 3D splines at present, along which you can sweep the profiles.

    Naturally you would model one side only (ie the solid shapes would start on the "Right" construction plane, and extend in only one direction), and then Mirror.

    I think this would be OK for "putting a toe in the water", and there's something to be said for being (occasionally!) forced to use a simple but powerful toolset, in terms of getting a more solid understanding of solid geometry, and making better models even when higher-level tools are an option.

    However, once Onshape has proper 3D sketching, including things like "spline on surface" and fillets between 3D splines, I'm fairly confident it will hold its own against the established modellers.
  • brucebartlettbrucebartlett Member, OS Professional, Mentor, User Group Leader Posts: 2,080 PRO
    I'd the complete frame in the part studio.

    This ideally needs a 3d sketcher. The only options you've got without the 3d sketcher is to build heaps of 2d sketches with planes or use surface or solid body edges to sweep along but hard to get true radius's on the corners. 

    BTW great job on the bike. image
    Engineer ı Product Designer ı Onshape Consulting Partner
    Twitter: @onshapetricks  & @babart1977   
  • adam_mercieradam_mercier OS Professional Posts: 33 PRO
    Thanks guys that was exactly the kind of advice I needed!
    Body edge sweept seems like a viable option, I need to test more in depht to see if it is right for me. For my use speed is more important than accuracy of the modelling, as I often need to try a lot of different ideas. I'll report back here my thougths after some tests.
  • adam_mercieradam_mercier OS Professional Posts: 33 PRO
    Ok I tried it and it seems pretty similar if not better than what I was doing in ST6


    Now only waiting for Drawing module to switch :)image
  • andrew_troupandrew_troup Member, Mentor Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭✭
    That's a sweet looking model. 
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,456 PRO
    @adam_mercier  Please provide us some specs or link of that end product, looks very interesting..  B)

    //rami
  • adam_mercieradam_mercier OS Professional Posts: 33 PRO
    Thanks! Here you will find some info :smile: 
    www.lmxbikes.com
    We are ramping production on the tubes frames while developping a new model with pedals (pre-production model in tests now).



    Any plans for some advanced rendering options in Onshape?

    Best regards,
    Adam

    LMX Bikes

  • michał_1michał_1 Member, Developers Posts: 214 ✭✭✭
    Awsome bikes.
    For rendering check Lagoa, it's a render in a cloud with very similar approach to Onshape. Free account with 100 GB of storage space, up to 10 documents, project managment same as in Onshape, you can invite other users and work on a same file (scene) at the same time.
    Best for Onshape users is that you can export STEP file (entite assembly) from OnS, and import to Lagoa. Unlimited render time, with free version up to 3 simultaneous renders. I was able to take picture in a size of 12800x7200 px, and I didn't check any further. Nice sets of materials, lot of settings...
  • navnav Member Posts: 258 ✭✭✭✭
    Just getting a little bit of topic +n votes to @michael_11, for suggesting Lagoa for rendering online I didn't know the tool it works great. Thanks.
    Nicolas Ariza V.
    Indaer -- Aircraft Lifecycle Solutions
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,456 PRO
    edited June 2015
    About rendering, take a look at Onshape tech partners - I think we are allowed to assume something is coming up. I'm mostly interested in Keyshot since I've been using it for years and like it very much.
    //rami
  • adam_mercieradam_mercier OS Professional Posts: 33 PRO
    Thanks michael_11!
    I actually researched this soft before but completely forgot about it for a while... time to test the thing now I guess!
    I have never used Keyshot but heard only good things about it so far, so it would be interesting to have a render module in OS based on their tech...
  • adam_mercieradam_mercier OS Professional Posts: 33 PRO
    I tried LAGOA wich seems to be very adequate for my basic needs:
    Definitely something I could use in the future! Now my free and cloud based workflow is taking shape!

    image
  • raino_paananenraino_paananen Member Posts: 17 ✭✭
    @adam_mercier
    Really cool products and concepts  :)

    Raino
  • christopher_owenschristopher_owens Member Posts: 235 ✭✭
    I have started using LAGOA also. Just beginning to learn that too! I wanted to add a comment here because I like the bicycle frame designing use of Onshape!
  • juan_avilesjuan_aviles Member Posts: 78 ✭✭
    I'm also interested in a better way to work with tube.  I'm used to 3D sketches in Solidworks, but I'm having a hard time doing this with OnShape (still a very new user...please forgive my ignorance).  I can do what I want with sketches, but I didn't see a need to use all the planes that @brucebartlett used above.  I'm hoping there is a better way to accomplish this though since I will be using tube work pretty extensively.

      
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    I'm also interested in a better way to work with tube.  I'm used to 3D sketches in Solidworks, but I'm having a hard time doing this with OnShape (still a very new user...please forgive my ignorance).  I can do what I want with sketches, but I didn't see a need to use all the planes that @brucebartlett used above.  I'm hoping there is a better way to accomplish this though since I will be using tube work pretty extensively.

      
    @juan_aviles I would consider waiting until there is a 3D sketcher in Onshape if you plan on doing a lot of these types of geometry on a regular basis.  The methods discussed here are really workarounds to get things done if you need it.  Maybe others will disagree, but if I had to do a lot of these - I would consider waiting.
  • juan_avilesjuan_aviles Member Posts: 78 ✭✭
    @pete_yodis I'll keep working it this way until the 3D sketcher comes along. It's actually the way I used to work with tube chassis' in Solidworks quite a few years ago.  I don't want to stop using Onshape just because of this small hiccup, and maybe I'll learn a few new things along the way.
  • andy_morrisandy_morris Moderator, Onshape Employees Posts: 87
    I've added a ticket for the 3D Sketch improvement, which will make this a more productive workflow.

    In the meantime, you can use the workflows described above. Remember that a path does for a sweep does not have to be from a single sketch, you can use a mixture of contiguous entities from multiple sketches as well as model edges.

    I used this approach for my motorcycle project, which you'll find in public documents.


    Andy Morris / Head of Product Design / Onshape, Inc.
  • dave_odledave_odle Member Posts: 4
    edited October 2015
    I'm also interested in a better way to work with tube.  I'm used to 3D sketches in Solidworks, but I'm having a hard time doing this with OnShape (still a very new user...please forgive my ignorance).  I can do what I want with sketches, but I didn't see a need to use all the planes that @brucebartlett used above.  I'm hoping there is a better way to accomplish this though since I will be using tube work pretty extensively.

      
    @juan_aviles I would consider waiting until there is a 3D sketcher in Onshape if you plan on doing a lot of these types of geometry on a regular basis.  The methods discussed here are really workarounds to get things done if you need it.  Maybe others will disagree, but if I had to do a lot of these - I would consider waiting.


    PETE I CAME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT MIGHT WORK AND POSTED A PUBLIC DOCUMENT. FIND IT BY SEARCHING SPLINE HELP ON THE MAIN CAD PAGE


    123.png 131.6K
  • seth_roskoseth_rosko Member Posts: 11 PRO
    Are there any plans to integrate commonly used shapes (like tubing) into a specific or stand alone tool? The current methodology to create then sweep/ extrude a profile or roll a shape seem like clumsy work arounds for a structure so common. Any time saving alternatives would be well received! 
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,456 PRO
    edited February 2016
    I would prefer to begin with 3d sketching tool before creating specific tools for certain segment..

    But 3d sketcher together with general common sketch shapes would have many use cases in various areas.
    //rami
  • philip_thomasphilip_thomas Member, Moderator, Onshape Employees, Developers Posts: 1,381
    This is a great discussion and yes, we have a long way to go (starting with 3D Sketches).

    That said, our users ARE creating complex frames with the tools as they exist today.
    Here is a public document created by Kyriakos Tryfonidis (Lamborghini Diablo space frame)



    https://cad.onshape.com/documents/db0187cc2611449cb3c4b475/w/f59e5c59778e4dc8884320c9
    Philip Thomas - Onshape
  • robert_morrisrobert_morris OS Professional, Developers Posts: 155 PRO
    Where can I vote for 3d sketches?

    The only thing I could find in the improvements section was this: https://onshape.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/206585867-3D-sketches-and-curves which says that it is already implemented.

    It would be nice to not have to revert back to SolidWorks to use 3d splines.
  • philip_thomasphilip_thomas Member, Moderator, Onshape Employees, Developers Posts: 1,381
    To participate in the enhancement request voting - start here - https://forum.onshape.com/categories/improvement-requests

    Philip Thomas - Onshape
  • robert_morrisrobert_morris OS Professional, Developers Posts: 155 PRO
    @philip_thomas The only request for 3D Sketching that I could find is this one: https://forum.onshape.com/discussion/1708/3d-sketches-and-curves-implemented.

    That says that it was "Implemented on December 02, 2015 10:45 in rel-1.39"

    Am I missing something?
  • philip_thomasphilip_thomas Member, Moderator, Onshape Employees, Developers Posts: 1,381
    Robert  - step 1 is to search to see if the improvement you want isn't already there (and therefore split the votes that would otherwise hasten the arrival of your desired functionality).
    If it's not already there, step 2 is to create a 'new improvement' - here is the button to do that . . . 



    We suggest describing the desired functionality very clearly in the title so that others can also find it and vote on it.

    Thank you for your support of Onshape :)
    Philip Thomas - Onshape
  • robert_morrisrobert_morris OS Professional, Developers Posts: 155 PRO
    Yes, I am aware of those steps.

    Please take a look at the links that I put in my last two posts.
    They clearly state that 3D Sketching has already been implemented and marked as Closed.

    My question is - has it actually been implemented or is this wrong?

  • _Ðave__Ðave_ Member, Developers Posts: 712 ✭✭✭✭
    @robert_morris  If that is what it says then it must be an error because 3d sketching isn't implemented. 
  • philip_thomasphilip_thomas Member, Moderator, Onshape Employees, Developers Posts: 1,381
    (investigating)
    Philip Thomas - Onshape
  • adam_mercieradam_mercier OS Professional Posts: 33 PRO
    Some update on the frame and product design on onshape, and thoughts :

     I managed to recreate the full bike in onshape, the process was quite straightforward BUT something that is really missing for me is the ability to derivate parts positions from an assembly to a part studio. I can modify the base shape and the full frame follows OK. Using booleans to make tube cutouts is very efficient to pass on files and drawings for manufacturing.
    I had to use move face trick a few times to simulate sheet metal parts but its far from ideal.

    Conclusion, for this kind of project 3d sketching is not 100% needed but would make thins faster and more straightforward.
    Adam




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