Welcome to the Onshape forum! Ask questions and join in the discussions about everything Onshape.

First time visiting? Here are some places to start:
  1. Looking for a certain topic? Check out the categories filter or use Search (upper right).
  2. Need support? Ask a question to our Community Support category.
  3. Please submit support tickets for bugs but you can request improvements in the Product Feedback category.
  4. Be respectful, on topic and if you see a problem, Flag it.

If you would like to contact our Community Manager personally, feel free to send a private message or an email.

Why can't I get along with orbiting in Onshape?

øyvind_kaurstadøyvind_kaurstad Member Posts: 234 ✭✭✭
Ok, this is probably stupid, but bear with a newbie.

I am new to professional CAD applications (counting Onshape in that category), but I have used plenty of other 3D applications, like Sketchup. Usually when orbiting a model with the mouse, it behaves intuitively.

However, in Onshape I always end up with a position/angle/tilt that I don't want, and to fix it I have to either choose a specific plane, or fiddle a lot with the mouse to get it back to how I want.

Does anyone understand what I mean? What is different with orbiting in Onshape compared to other applications?

Best Answer

«1

Answers

  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    @øyvind_kaurstad I understand.  There is something that gets me too... I end up pressing "F" on the keyboard alot to zoom fit around the model.  I think there were some posts on this... It seems like its a view rotation center thing, but I'm not entirely sure yet.
  • _Ðave__Ðave_ Member, Developers Posts: 712 ✭✭✭✭
    I don't know just what is different from other programs but I really like the way the model rotates in OnShape.
  • andrew_troupandrew_troup Member, Mentor Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This has  been discussed a lot on the forum, but not recently. Basically MCAD tends to work differently than freeform 3D apps, which use a "turntable" paradigm (where horizontal planes remain horizontal)

    The MCAD convention makes it easier to rotate parts in the plane of the screen while manipulating, and if this is not desired behaviour, you can pick an edge after the manipulation and RMB "Align view with vertical axis"

    Here's a tip to minimise the need for this extra step, and avoid queasiness due to unwanted tilt:

    As an illustrative step: a user wanting to informally rotate in the plane of the screen while "orbiting" using the right mouse button, would move the mouse in a circle with that button held down. The part will rotate in the opposite sense, progressively (while wobbling/nutating). The larger the circle radius, the quicker the counter-rotation.

    Once a user becomes adept at and aware of this non-obvious behavioural linkage, the consciousness gets unconsciously incorporated into ordinary orbiting so as to keep vertical lines approximately vertical, when that's the desired behaviour.
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2015
    As a comparison, I don't notice myself needing to re-fit the display as much in SolidWorks when I'm working compared Onshape.  Although in SolidWorks I can double middle mouse click to re-fit (really quick and a part of my subconscious muscle memory at this point).  There is something that feels a little different and not necessarily in a good way with the Onshape rotate.  As @andrew_troupexplains, there are differences with MCAD for sure.  My guess is the differences in MCAD are due to the useage case where you might be working on tiny details in the midst of a giant model.  I need to get myself onto using a 3D Connexion motion controller to see how I feel with that.  I suspect I won't be going back after I start using one with Onshape.
  • andrew_troupandrew_troup Member, Mentor Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2015
    @pete_yodis raises an interesting question: why does MCAD tend not to feature turntable-type rotation?

    One reason, for sure, is the one he raises: trying to peer through a thicket of machine elements in a top level assembly of a large project, with oblique sightlines, in order to viddy a couple of entities to mate, can certainly require some funky (ie non-turntable) orbiting.

    A simpler example would be modelling a long skinny beam (say a weldment based on a steel rectangular hollow section) with connection details around all four faces at each end. In order to move from one face to another while still being able to (say) access sketch entities at the far end of the beam, will require rotating the model roughly but not exactly in the plane of the screen.
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    Here's an example of what @andrew_troup would call a turntable type rotation: https://sketchfab.com/
    Play around with that one for a while.

    With the turntable type scheme, you'll find yourself panning things into place after a zoom in.  It's different.  I do like the smoothness of the example I just linked to.  There is something nice about it, and it feels a little more predictable and intuitive to me.  I wonder if at some point, there could be view rotation scheme options.  Different strokes for different folks.

  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,470 PRO
    I like Onshape style very much, especially with big construction model in perspective view and 3d mouse - it's like walking inside the building and can be easily manipulated to walk upstairs and so.. I have nothing to complain about current view system.
    //rami
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    3dcad said:
    I like Onshape style very much, especially with big construction model in perspective view and 3d mouse - it's like walking inside the building and can be easily manipulated to walk upstairs and so.. I have nothing to complain about current view system.
    @3dcad, do you notice after repeated rotates of a model that it tends to walk in one direction on you?  That's what I'm seeing, but I could be off.
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,470 PRO
    @pete_yodis I'm not sure if I understood correctly but I just noticed with chromebook that it zoomed (walked) forward no matter of which direction I scrolled with mouse.. Is this what you experience as well?

    I haven't noticed this earlier, but I work mostly in office and with 3d mouse..
    //rami
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    @3dcad I don't notice anymore with zoom in and out.  I did at one time and we discussed on the forums.  https://forum.onshape.com/discussion/284/view-rotation

    I do notice the repeated rotation issue with the model walking.  I'll look some more tonight.  I have both large (5 acre size) and small models to look at it.

  • øyvind_kaurstadøyvind_kaurstad Member Posts: 234 ✭✭✭
    This has turned into a very interesting discussion. I would very much support the idea that Onshape could implement different styles of orbiting to allow users to choose. It would then also be interesting for the people behind Onshape to look at the stats and see what people really prefer.

    Perhaps the current style works better with a 3D mouse than with a ordinary mouse? I don't have the former so I couldn't say, but with a normal mouse I clearly prefer the Sketchfab style that pete_yodis linked to. I just feels more intuitive, at least for me that doesn't have previous MCAD experience.


  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    I'm sure it gets more tricky when there are numerous input devices for rotation... traditional mouse, 3D motion controllers, touch screens, track pads... etc.  I have used Onshape on a MacBook Pro and I felt like a fish out of water with the track pad.  I've been so accustomed to a traditional mouse on a windows box when using MCAD.


    With regards to rotation scheme... there could be intelligent ways of changing the scheme based on the model and the current zoom state in the model.  Not sure it would be consistent enough or feel natural enough - just spit balling a bit.
  • øyvind_kaurstadøyvind_kaurstad Member Posts: 234 ✭✭✭
    The way it is now is very awkward for me, at least. Orbiting just isn't intuitive, and as andrew_troup explained, to fix the unwanted tilting one has to do circular motions with the mouse to correct it. I don't ever think this will become natural, as EVERY other 3D program I am using behaves differently.

  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2015
    The way it is now is very awkward for me, at least. Orbiting just isn't intuitive, and as andrew_troup explained, to fix the unwanted tilting one has to do circular motions with the mouse to correct it. I don't ever think this will become natural, as EVERY other 3D program I am using behaves differently.

    øyvind_kaurstad

    Are the models you are working with large or small?  Are they symmetric?  After experimenting a bit more; I notice on one of my models that has an odd geometric balance to it, that the rotation feels most un-natural.  It is not a walking thing as I mentioned earlier, just something that feels odd sometimes and I need an extra correction to get to the position/orientation that I am after.  On a very large model, the rotation feels pretty good.  Try looking at a bunch of public models of varying size and shape and see if it feels different.  Also, I notice that circle with a cross hair seems to be the center of rotation.  That gives you clues to how the center of rotation is being determined as you begin to rotate it.
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,470 PRO
    I haven't ever paid too much attention to this until I tried to manipulate 3dpdf of warehouse building in adobe reader.. it's just pure pain / impossible to handle without 3d mouse.
    I have tested se, sw, inventor, vertex and bunch of cheap cads and mainly worked with alibre/geomagic and onshape - I have no complains on view manipulation. I'm using traditional mouse at home, 3d mouse at work, chromebook trackpad when traveling and ipad/android touchscreen in meetings.

    To be honest I have difficulties to understand what's the problem with Ons view manipulation (there has been few threads about this earlier too)? 
    //rami
  • øyvind_kaurstadøyvind_kaurstad Member Posts: 234 ✭✭✭
    @pete_yodis: I haven't looked at very large models (yet), but I don't really see how that should matter? I'll take a look at some large models, though.

    @3dcad: To illustrate the problem,
    try selecting the isometric view when looking at a model. Then drag with the right mouse button to the
    right (i.e horizontally), thereby rotating the view. Now the object ends up tilted to the right, but what I really wanted was that the vertical lines of the front plane actually was vertical (like they were in the isometric view before dragging) on screen. Not tilted to the right.

    I do get that many people probably want it this way, but it shouldn't be too difficult for Onshape to implement functionality to let the users choose orbiting style.
  • _Ðave__Ðave_ Member, Developers Posts: 712 ✭✭✭✭
    3dcad said:

    To be honest I have difficulties to understand what's the problem with Ons view manipulation (there has been few threads about this earlier too)? 
      I agree I'm quite comfortable with the action. It appears to have the same motion in which option I've chosen in my cam software.
     It feels quite natural to and I fear that what is being requested is something that I will not be comfortable with. I certainly hope that if a change is made that it will be an option.
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    @DaVickiøyvind_kaurstad seems to want more of the turntable rotate, although it has problems on larger models and such.  The turntable rotate seems to be more of a show style for the model.  It would frustrate me when working on small details of those models.


    I spent some time this weekend on one particular model of mine and compared the rotate in Onshape to the same model in SolidWorks 2009.  The rotate in Onshape did in fact wobble/walk on me compared to the model rotate in SolidWorks.  It's different in Onshape, but I'd argue that difference isn't a good thing at the moment.  It's a also minor nit pick, but for someone with muscle memory from long term use of a very popular MCAD package - it comes off feeling just the slightest bit odd.  It may not be immediately apparent, but it's one of those things in the background that consumes a little too much thought on a very foundational level with the product.  I have used Onshape enough that the rotate with the right mouse button, rather than the middle mouse button is pretty much second nature to me - but I still notice the rotate being what I feel is slightly off.  The model is one where it's not symmetric.  It's closer to symmetric with one area that is not at all.  I'm wondering if that particular geometry is affecting the view rotate scheme just enough.
  • øyvind_kaurstadøyvind_kaurstad Member Posts: 234 ✭✭✭
    @pete_yodis : Yes, it may well be that what I want is what you call a turnable rotate. Let me ask you something, if you start in the isometric view and want to end up with a front view in which you view slightly down on the model (i.e not a pure front view, more like a slight mix of front and top view), how do you do that with a regular mouse?

    I find that unless I want to end up with a tilted view, I need to first drag upwards to make the top plane horizontal, and then I can drag right to rotate the model, and then I must drag a little bit downwards again. This is cumbersome and error-prone, because unless you do it with extreme precision, you will still end up with s very slight tilt in some direction.

    With my preferred orbit style, a simple right drag would do the same, no fuss.

    Again, I understand that many of you prefer the current style, and I'm not asking to have that changed, I'd just like to have the option to choose what in my opinion is a better way, at least for people not used to the SW style.


  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,470 PRO
    edited November 2015
    @øyvind_kaurstad
    I haven't ever thought about how I move model with mouse. It seems like a lot of movement begins with moving mouse first to upper left then back to desired angle.

    //rami
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    3dcad said:
    @øyvind_kaurstad
    I haven't ever thought about how I move model with mouse. It seems like a lot of movement begins with moving mouse first to upper left then back to desired angle.

    @3dcad Are you using Onshape with a traditional mouse, or something else most of the time (trackpad)?
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
     øyvind_kaurstad said:
    @pete_yodis : Yes, it may well be that what I want is what you call a turnable rotate. Let me ask you something, if you start in the isometric view and want to end up with a front view in which you view slightly down on the model (i.e not a pure front view, more like a slight mix of front and top view), how do you do that with a regular mouse?

    I find that unless I want to end up with a tilted view, I need to first drag upwards to make the top plane horizontal, and then I can drag right to rotate the model, and then I must drag a little bit downwards again. This is cumbersome and error-prone, because unless you do it with extreme precision, you will still end up with s very slight tilt in some direction.

    With my preferred orbit style, a simple right drag would do the same, no fuss.

    Again, I understand that many of you prefer the current style, and I'm not asking to have that changed, I'd just like to have the option to choose what in my opinion is a better way, at least for people not used to the SW style.


    øyvind_kaurstad

    I find that I can manipulate the model best by placing the mouse in the upper corner of the area outside my model - say the upper left.  The view rotate seems to behave a bit better that way.  You would then move the mouse down to the right as if you were moving towards the center of mass of the model.  I notice SolidWorks seems to work better when I am placing my mouse near the center of mass of the model and rotating... almost the opposite.  I wonder if some additional damping on the view manipulation would be helpful as well.  I don't know if that changes with the browser you are using.  I need to do some more experimenting...

    By the way... FireFox is my browser of choice at the moment because the gain on the zoom using the scrollwheel on the mouse is much higher than with Chrome.
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,470 PRO
    @pete_yodis I'm using mostly with traditional mouse when just reviewing the models / testing, trackpad only when working in car or such..
    When I'm actually working in office, I use 3d mouse.

    I used firefox earlier because of the scroll speed, after 3d mouse support I switched to chrome.
    //rami
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    3dcad said:
    @pete_yodis I'm using mostly with traditional mouse when just reviewing the models / testing, trackpad only when working in car or such..
    When I'm actually working in office, I use 3d mouse.

    I used firefox earlier because of the scroll speed, after 3d mouse support I switched to chrome.
    I think I will purchase a 3D mouse very soon.
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,470 PRO
    ..
    I think I will purchase a 3D mouse very soon.
    Let us know how you like after couple of weeks..

    I've had this for ages:


    And few months ago bought this:


    I'm really enjoying working with it, partly because new stuff always cheer me up but also because it's actually making me more productive and helps me get things done in tight schedule.
    //rami
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    @3dcad If you were to buy just one, what would it be?
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,470 PRO
    @pete_yodis I would take the Spacemouse Pro (which I now have).
    I don't need to travel with it so I have cords but if you connect to a laptop you might wan't to consider the wireless version (I didn't consider that since I hate running out of batteries =)
    I took also their cad mouse on same delivery and the separate middle button has been very useful in many programs. Scroll could be better though.
    //rami
  • pete_yodispete_yodis OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    3dcad said:
    @pete_yodis I would take the Spacemouse Pro (which I now have).
    I don't need to travel with it so I have cords but if you connect to a laptop you might wan't to consider the wireless version (I didn't consider that since I hate running out of batteries =)
    I took also their cad mouse on same delivery and the separate middle button has been very useful in many programs. Scroll could be better though.
    @3dcad If you were to travel a little bit, what might be your suggestion?  Is there much of a difference between the SpaceMouse Pro and the SpaceNavigator in terms of view manipulation?  If not, then one of each please!? :)
  • michael3424michael3424 Member Posts: 674 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2015
    I started out with the Navigator for low cost and moved up to the SpacePilot Pro when the former proved satisfactory.  The wireless Navigator would have been better for travel with a laptop.  That may not be a bad way to go.
Sign In or Register to comment.