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Selection: We need your feedback

scott_harrisscott_harris Moderator, Onshape Employees Posts: 60
Hi Onshapers,
We need your feedback on selection with respect to the feature list.

Currently:
* Selection is cumulative so each selected item is added to the selection list. If you select an item again, it is removed from the list.
* Shift select - selects everything between a selected item and the shift selected item
* There is no Ctrl select because the browser hijiacks the Ctrl key.
The benefits are that this is simple & consistent with the graphics selection
The cons are that it is not what people are used to and that loads of UX tests have shown many people tripping over failed functions because they had unintentionally selected items.

A solution is to make our "feature & assembly list" selection more conventional.
* Select an item and any previously selected item deselects (it is not cumulative).
* Shift select would work the same as it does today
* Since we can not add a Ctrl select, we would add "option/alt" select instead which would work as the conventional Ctrl select works in other application...ie Alt/Option select would add the item to the selection list (or remove it if it was already selected).

My question: Do you like the current list selection?

Thanks,

/Scott
Scott Harris / Onshape, Inc.
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Comments

  • matt_hardmanmatt_hardman Member Posts: 24 ✭✭
    I don't mind the cumulative selection without ctrl key at all, but we need an easy shortcut to clear the selection. Like Esc for example. Also, maybe if there was a selection count then it would be easier for ppl to see that they've already selected something before they start a feature.

    The other thing that I've noticed is that the shift-select is not cumulative. I think it should be. To clarify: If you select and Item "A", then select "C" and Shift-Select "E" your selection will consist of only C,D,E and not A.
  • scott_harrisscott_harris Moderator, Onshape Employees Posts: 60
    BTW... spacebar clears selection.
    Scott Harris / Onshape, Inc.
  • matt_hardmanmatt_hardman Member Posts: 24 ✭✭
    aha!
  • Ben_Ben_ OS Professional, Mentor, Developers Posts: 276 PRO
    It has taken me some time to get used to it but I do like it now. I think the user just needs time to adjust to the method and then adapt...
  • scott_harrisscott_harris Moderator, Onshape Employees Posts: 60
    Also... The other behavior with "A" getting deselected is a bug.
    Scott Harris / Onshape, Inc.
  • caradoncaradon OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 300 PRO
    For me cumulative selection of vertices, edges and faces in the graphics window feels very natural.
    I'm not so wild about cumulative selection in lists though. It is especially annoying when browsing through the part history.
    I like your ideas for list selections.

    I think it would be OK to have different selection behaviors in the graphics area vs. lists.

    Dries
  • scott_harrisscott_harris Moderator, Onshape Employees Posts: 60
    Would using the "Alt" key instead of the "Ctrl" key bother you?
    Scott Harris / Onshape, Inc.
  • caradoncaradon OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 300 PRO
    Scott said:

    Would using the "Alt" key instead of the "Ctrl" key bother you?

    No.

    Dries
  • mark_biasottimark_biasotti Member Posts: 123 ✭✭✭
    @‌scott

    Would using the "Alt" key instead of the "Ctrl" key bother you?

    No, but What exactly does the key do in the browser when using OS? (I'm in Chrome) - it seems to do nothing while in the modeling space?

    Are we talking about lists (like in the Feature tree) or everything, like selecting faces in the viewport?

    I think a successful way to mitigate whatever your method will be is to have good Pre-selection and selection feedback to the user. This way there is nothing left to doubt, and soon the behavior becomes predictive.

    The biggest selection issue I have in OS currently is applying sketch relations. It is really hit or miss right now because there doesn't seem to be modeless when using it. i.e. select entities and then apply relation. Same seems to be true for applying mates. I don't think this is the case because I think I've seen it work both ways, but what I can say is the the feedback (highlighting, glowing etc.) has been very poor in indicating what is actually selected - especially in sketch environment.

    Also, another avenue would be to make your Selection Set feature much more prominent and persistent and put some more effort into making that tool more useful.

    M
  • billy2billy2 Member, OS Professional, Mentor, Developers Posts: 1,300 PRO
    I don't have a problem with the current selection.

    I worry about assigning the Alt key multi-select in the feature/assy list and then Alt key window-select in the graphics area. 2 different behaviors for the Alt key.

    My vote, leave it alone and get window-select working in the graphics area.
  • traveler_hauptmantraveler_hauptman Member, OS Professional, Mentor, Developers Posts: 419 PRO
    I also like the current selection (Lclick toggles individual items, shift works as expected) approach.

    I think clearing the selection is not a good way to go. as someone else suggested is better if it's available in the browser.

    When I am doing sustained cad work, I map ESC(Cancel) and Enter(OK) to mouse buttons so I don't have to move my left hand to hit those keys. A common idiom for the space key is 'last tool' or 'toggle tool vs selection'. When I'm working with a program that uses this idiom, I use it constantly. Using space to clear the selection does not feel intuitive.

  • traveler_hauptmantraveler_hauptman Member, OS Professional, Mentor, Developers Posts: 419 PRO
    traveler said:
    I also like the current selection (Lclick toggles individual items, shift works as expected) approach. I think clearing the selection is not a good way to go. as someone else suggested is better if it's available in the browser. When I am doing sustained cad work, I map ESC(Cancel) and Enter(OK) to mouse buttons so I don't have to move my left hand to hit those keys. A common idiom for the space key is 'last tool' or 'toggle tool vs selection'. When I'm working with a program that uses this idiom, I use it constantly. Using space to clear the selection does not feel intuitive.
    Now that I have 10's of hours of use I have a more refined perspective.

    I get bitten by the "loads of UX tests have shown many people tripping over failed functions because they had unintentionally selected items." issue constantly. I am slowly learning to paw the space bar habitually like a rat on morphine. It's obvious that this selection approach is prep for touch interaction, and hopefully improvements to the feature tree and UI will help reduce the condition of thinking you are starting a new selection when actually you are building on an old one.

    I'd really like to see a selection list panel available (with a clear and undo button). That way, if I find myself tripping up too much I can just show the panel and understand exactly what is selected and deterministically unselect when the geometry makes picking off the screen difficult.  After making a bad selection on my iPad, I can just swipe to the selection panel minimized on the right side and fix it.




  • fastwayjimfastwayjim Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 219 PRO
    @traveler makes a great point - Part of the learning curve for users will be the fact that they are using CAD on new devices (phone, tablet, hybrid, etc.) so selecting things will be a new experience. Anything to help manage what has been/will be selected is valuable. I like the idea of a global selection list that can be easily accessed.
  • JoshJosh Member Posts: 1
    Ben said:
    It has taken me some time to get used to it but I do like it now. I think the user just needs time to adjust to the method and then adapt...
    Agreed. Once I started getting the hang of the list view, it became much easier to think of parts as a list in addition to 3D space. Being able to name them is also really helpful!
  • brucebartlettbrucebartlett Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 1,878 PRO
    I must have got use to the Onshape selection method, when I jumped back onto soildworks this week I was trying to use it like Onshape. I have also got used to the N for normal, I think I will have to map this for soildworks too.

    Overall I am Happy with the way it works, really like the count up of selections. Looking forward the the mobile release which will highlight the need for this kind of selection. 

    My biggest problem is selection of mates in assemblies, showing the mate when click on the mate works by highlighting the position and part but what i really want to know is what mate attaches to what part by clicking on the part, ie click on a part and highlight related mates in the tree. Clicking the part highlights mate connectors but a bit ambiguous as to what the mates are.
    Engineer ı Product Designer ı Onshape Consulting Partner
    Twitter: @onshapetricks  & @babart1977   
  • Jimmy_BarreraJimmy_Barrera OS Professional Posts: 7 PRO
    Cumulative selection is actually a solution to one of our problems here at Cimquest.  We utilize a 84" touch smart board in our training room, and a 70" touch panel in our trade shows.  One of the challenges was that there is no easy way to Ctrl + select items without bringing up the virtual keyboard...that can get tedious very quick.  So we created demo sets to show off, where you would not have to use the Ctrl key at all: NOT REALISTIC.
    My opinion is that if you forecast a good portion of the users to use OS on tablets, phones, touch screens...cumulative selection AS IS works fantastic.  Yes, IT IS a change in how we do things.  But after all, OS as a whole is a NEW  way right?  My vote:  WE LEAVE AS IT.
  • spiked3spiked3 Member Posts: 34
    edited March 2015
    I will tell you how I would handle it;

    Ctrl click, shift click - those are part of a UI standard that is responsible for Windowed application growth in the first place. It is critical to maintain the same primitives from application to application.  If the browser wants to hijack ctrl-click, move on to the next browser company, I am sure they would be more interested in helping you out.  Isnt Chrome all open source anyhow? Or is that just smoke?  Fork it (literally).

    Update: heh, see I got a reaction. That was more the purpose than anything :P  Like I said, that is how I would handle it. If I was Onshape, I'd leave it the heck alone :)
    Mike Partain aka Spiked3
    http://www.spiked3.com
  • billy2billy2 Member, OS Professional, Mentor, Developers Posts: 1,300 PRO
    I like the selection in OS. Makes lazy engineering easier. I don't want to have to hold the ctrl-key down to multi-select.

    I've gotten use it and I like the accumulating selection without holding anything down. 

    You do have to get use to it though. Remember the space bar is your friend and clears the selection list. You have get good at hitting the space bar or double clicking in white space. I prefer the space bar.

    My vote leave it alone.




  • colemancoleman OS Professional Posts: 242 PRO
    After getting used to it----> I really like current selection mode.  Please do not change it.  
  • wileywiley OS Professional Posts: 17 PRO
    Love the cumulative selection. Please keep it.
  • jim_farruggiajim_farruggia OS Professional Posts: 4 PRO
    Ditto, I like it the way it is now. Please keep it.

  • jacob_pelletierjacob_pelletier Member Posts: 4
    Same here. Took some time programming my fingers to stop pressing CTRL, but now I like it. Don't change it.
  • r_paulr_paul Member Posts: 22 ✭✭
    "Ditto & same again" +1. I think you have a good system going already.
    I'm jumping several times a day between AutoCAD, Inventor, Draftsight and (now) Onshape so head and fingers just have to learn to cope.

  • onshaperonshaper Member, Mentor Posts: 98 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2015
    I like it just the way it is. Would be nice if Escape cleared out first the geometry selection and then the tool selection!

    Maybe:

    1) deselect last selection
    2) remove all selection
    3) cancel out of current tool
  • billy2billy2 Member, OS Professional, Mentor, Developers Posts: 1,300 PRO
    I tend to pick the entity again to remove it from selection. Seems to work just like SW. Picking again works for me to remove. Having 3 escape modes doesn't bother me as I hit it many times to clear everything.
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,388 PRO
    edited May 2015
    Selection is good as it is.

    When sketching I have learned to keep my free hand on keyboard so that I have space, n and d always available. I don't need esc since double click 'd' does the job (1st click activate dimension, 2nd click deactivate = same as esc). For 3dconnexion we need some control over quick buttons since I'm running out of hands when 3d mouse becomes available. 
    When I use just mouse, I'm always looking for dimension tool in RMB menu.

    Actually, in sketch mode I would like to:
    - activate/deactivate dimension tool with double click RMB
    - deselect all with double click LMB on free area when no tools are selected (this could be global behavior)
    - View normal to sketch plane with click LMB+RMB simultaneously.

    What do you think?


    Edit:
    OR just choose user act for 
    - double click RMB 
    - double click LMB on free area when no tools are selected 
    - click LMB+RMB simultaneously. 

    I mean settings that I could manipulate to achieve dblclick RMB = same as hitting D on keyboard
    //rami
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,388 PRO
    R.Paul said:
    *clip*
    I'm jumping several times a day between AutoCAD, Inventor, Draftsight and (now) Onshape so head and fingers just have to learn to cope.

    I can feel your 'pain'. I'm jumping frequently between GD, Ons and Keyshot. Geomagic Design turns model with LMB+RMB pressed together, Ons with RMB and Keyshot with LMB.. sometimes my fingers just freeze waiting for eyes to tell my brain what is the current active software  :#
    //rami
  • ben_smithben_smith Member Posts: 1
    BTW... spacebar clears selection.

    I would really prefer escape clearing selection.  This is what I am used to, escape once clears the selection, hitting it twice exits the current function.
  • kinsleymarkkinsleymark Member Posts: 35 ✭✭✭
    This is one of the (many) problems with using a browser as the way to run Onshape -- many of the key commands and trackpad gestures are already assigned to browser functions.

    For example, I too would love to be able to hit "ESC" to end a command or clear a selection. However, I run Onshape full screen in Safari because I need as much screen space as possible (the browser tabs, address bar, shortcuts bar, etc. all get in the way -- another browser-based problem). Hitting "ESC" will exit full screen view.
  • 3dcad3dcad Member, OS Professional, Mentor Posts: 2,388 PRO
    ben_smith said:
    BTW... spacebar clears selection.

    I would really prefer escape clearing selection.  This is what I am used to, escape once clears the selection, hitting it twice exits the current function.
    I too have difficulties to build a muscle memory for using space to deselect. But you can also double-click free area to deselect and for me this is even better than escape would be.

    I would like to use double-esc to escape function and select the same function again. For example end current line but select line tool again.
    I know this can be done with dblclick on last point, but that is another thing I find difficult to remember before I have already clicked the final point in position.  
    //rami
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