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Software to use for early 2D sketching
I use a lot of time working on different layouts. Until windows 8 I used something called Designer (by MicroGraf or smthing later on bought by Corel) which was very simple drawing software but unfortunately doesn't work with modern computers.
I could setup xp machine for this but I would like to do also homework, using xp remotely would be a bit clomsy..
I have tried to look for good modern alternatives and also tried to use Onshape sketching / Alibre drawings but they are all too fancy for this purpose.
SW draftsight has way too complex UI since I don't have previous experience..
I would need super light drawings software that can easily create lines, circles, arcs, rectangles with metric dimensions. It would be also nice if I can write text among shapes and measure distances. It would be almost perfect if I can use colors and patterns to make difference between shapes.
The key is that shape 'blocks' should be easily moved and rotated. And Ctrl drag to make a copy etc.. Select area and create block.. Old style, you know..
I would use this before creating exact assemblies with Onshape, even though 3D and assemblies have came far - nothing can beat simple approximate 2D drafting to quickly test ideas.
I would really appreciate if anyone knows good software for me - I really hate to do this with pen&paper..
ps. @lougallo This is one of the functionalities I would expect from Onshape drawings at some point..
I could setup xp machine for this but I would like to do also homework, using xp remotely would be a bit clomsy..
I have tried to look for good modern alternatives and also tried to use Onshape sketching / Alibre drawings but they are all too fancy for this purpose.
SW draftsight has way too complex UI since I don't have previous experience..
I would need super light drawings software that can easily create lines, circles, arcs, rectangles with metric dimensions. It would be also nice if I can write text among shapes and measure distances. It would be almost perfect if I can use colors and patterns to make difference between shapes.
The key is that shape 'blocks' should be easily moved and rotated. And Ctrl drag to make a copy etc.. Select area and create block.. Old style, you know..
I would use this before creating exact assemblies with Onshape, even though 3D and assemblies have came far - nothing can beat simple approximate 2D drafting to quickly test ideas.
I would really appreciate if anyone knows good software for me - I really hate to do this with pen&paper..
ps. @lougallo This is one of the functionalities I would expect from Onshape drawings at some point..
//rami
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https://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/en_us/products/catchbook/
Twitter: @BryanLAGdesign
projektowanieproduktow.wordpress.com
DraftSight
Catchbook seems very interesting, especially for tablet and it seems to work fine with my ThinkPad using stylus. I just might invest that 5,99€ and try it for a year. But as I mostly work in office, it's not so great using mouse..
@michał_1
Corel is a bit expensive for just light testing, Inkscape we use for other tasks in work - I will need to look deeper how it supports dimensions etc..
Thanks guys!
Sketching has a lot of good functionality for this purpose but it gets way too slow if sketch grows bigger and it is acceptable as it is not build for project drafting. I would love to create complex sketches enriched with imported dxf that I would use in assembly to create layouts. Assembly has great tools with measuring and triad using numeric movements and rotation.
Afterwards this would work as backround sketch for 3d layout and positioning reference.
The best part would be of course the familiar interface in full cloud environment.
It would be perfect solution for my needs at least. Is there anyone else that would need signifigantly more power into sketch handling performance?
@scott_harris (or anyone else)
Could yo explain why complex 2d sketch is so big hit for performance?
I have freezed one of my document for hours by inserting multiple house blueprints into sketches to compare - zero bodies, looks simple but seems to be VERY hard for Onshape.
@michael3424
I did not know that - interesting. Alibre WAS very promising piece of software..
Of course I could replace that with dummy rectangle but then I lose the benefit of using dxfs that I get from suppliers and would have to draw everything myself and write text to know what block is this + feed directions etc.. Sketch image could be workaround but they don't show in assemby sketches.
For now, Inkscape is fine, by default it uses pixels but you can change the defaults. There are a couple of differences in compare to Corel, but few only.
You're working in furniture industry so you might have already V-Crave. Except being cam software it has drafting tools, and they are almost the same as in all known vector graphic programs.
You can check also SolidEdge 2D Drafting
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Thanks for quick reply.
What do you think of possibility to 'turn off' solver and just let it be lines & curves?
I understand that I was using the system 'wrong' and I already removed few sketches and got the doc back on its feet - it's still slow though, I will contact support. Even though things have slowed down few times, Onshape has been BIG help for designing a house - not bad for mcad
simplify your layouts, but keep them in OS.
It drives me crazing walking into a company and they hand me manufacturing data for the their products. I'm always looking for the engineering data describing how the top level was put together.
• you don't need everything in one sketch, especially with a solver running.
• please identify your major datums so that parts refer to these and not one another
• don't put details in the layout, you're just claiming space
• keep it simple and as the project grows, so will the complexity
• identify it, you may be long gone and I still have to follow your skeleton assembly and I need to understand it
This discussion is definitely on the right track. Don't use something else to generate the layout. Make it apart of your documentation. I'd appreciate a well documented project structure if I had to maintain your stuff at a later date.
Establishing datums isn't easy, but if you do them correctly, the project grows beautifully. Multiple engineers work together nicely. Things get done faster. You'll make me happy.
I should know when you're assembling by coordinates and when you're not. I need to understand the referencing scheme. When do you allow assy(incontext) references and when they are not permitted. Theres a lot that goes into a top level that describes a project. If you do it right, your project will be a joy to work on for years. If you don't, then you'll have SW.
In your layout, tell me why.
I thought I would create blocks as separate sketches into single studio and use assembly for positioning. Editing blocks should be easy using 'Hide other sketches' so I can just create stack of sketches and be careful with naming. In assembly I begin with planar mating everything on 'top plane' then it has 'one click' triad to move /rotate blocks in '2d space'. Measuring tool is brilliant.
I just need to figure how to make 'blocks' to look enough like machines but keep them simple, sketch image could be light solution but thay are not visible in assembly. Decals will probably solve this at some point.
Using comments for commenting layout and purpose of things is genious - it seems like Onsape has reached the point where one can totally forget some functionality until someone in this great forum refreshes your memory.
Thanks for all suggestions - I did download and try few 2d options - but I'm pretty sure I will push myself to bend Onshape into this purpose too. Having things in cloud accessible with all devices is just something that is very easy to get used to - anything less feels like past (like downloading 2gig solidEdge package from crappy server using 4 hours to transfer).
So why did I totally 'turn my jacket' overnight?
Well, this could be part of psychological lesson 'How to think properly'. I have thought this layout workflow in short bits every now and then (in hurry) - never really took time to just sit and think what can I currently do with my available tools.
Writing a question into forums in foreing language forced me to really think and write down what I need. After reading few answers and quickly testing other software, it appears that I need more than I first realized. And most of that functionality was right there in Onshape. I just haven't earlier needed to insert sketches into assembly nor thought of using anything else than single sketch or drawings for drafting.
I strongly recommend writing your problems on forum, sometimes solutions pops out while reading your own question before sending it out and doesn't even need to be published
Let's carry on discussion on best practises to use Onshape for drafting!
On edit: I wish I could temporarily switch solver off to clean up dxf before actual insert.
Using just rectangles as movable blocks can cause problems with opening doors, dust extration piping, electrics, etc..
https://cad.onshape.com/documents/75b863b1b99b44a9adfe592b/w/225476ffc0534d918a11418a/e/71880e6ed61f4a3196aee076
Twitter: @onshapetricks & @babart1977
projektowanieproduktow.wordpress.com
I remember that, it was really nice having images behind. I wish we had more time to get that project going..
I agree, it would be sometimes useful to just sketch freely using stylus.. @bryan_lagrange linked cool siemens software, maybe something like that behind the model?
@michal_1
Thanks. I am 'looking for' (waiting for something to fall on my lap) online publishing software where I could draw&build, manage and share assembly instructions. Something like inkscape / adobe in-design with multiple pages and easy way to add images + some arrows and other light drawings.
projektowanieproduktow.wordpress.com
layouts are fairly simple, in this case driven on top of an image:
drag your acad in as an image, then put a layout on top of that:
All examples in this post are 2d layouts, but I have layouts that are 3d also. I'm not tied to a plan view for a layout of a project. The advantage to understanding a layout and creating it, especially in parametric modeling, is to keep the referencing straight. Parametric feature based modeling is all about referencing. Some organize it well and many don't.
Anyway, I'm not interested in a 2d sketcher, sorry.
But for quick approximate testing top view 2D blocks are good. Maybe simple 3D blocks with image on top would be the best at the moment.
It would give better understanding of heights too.
I wish for EU regulation to end acad so I could get those 3D blocks together with offers instead of those dwgs. As a lazy guy, I wouldn't like to redraw those drawings into my layouts - and after each update I need to do it again.
Does anyone know how they do these models and animations? I suppose it's not mcad stuff..
I'm running small business in furniture industry. My business is based on low overall cost so I try to do as many things myself as possible.
So sometimes I need to design also production machines if I'm not satisfied on product/price on existing solutions. And going forward it feels natural to insert machine model into assembly and see how it fits into production line. I don't see any reason why I should jump into another platform at that point.
Mainly I use Onshape for furniture design and assembly instructions but I have also done 800m2 warehouse 3D model, machinery, production lines & layout, some 2D drafting and lately designed new house including placement on 5 hectare site. All these include some collaboration with suppliers and onsite modeling with phone/tablet. I think Onshape has served me well.
Does that answer to your question?
As a former contract-based independent designer/consultant myself I can fully understand the need for keeping costs low!
I would say OS could create the geometry which is a major task in itself. Once you have the geometry then you create the animated video. I'd guess who ever created the video spent more than $20us.
There's several video rendering companies in the app store that'd love to take your OS geometry and render it. Most I've talked to render statically to makes things gold or clear like glass. Creating the animations and composing the movie is a lot of work.
I'm interested in a live version you can post on your website and allow a user to fly through. I'm currently talking to OneRender about such a task. In this case, the user can fly through a rendered OS model. This will be hosted on your website and will be quite different than watching a video. The link would be live, if desired, what ever you do shows up on your website.
How are you going to setup a project that gets this machinery designed in 3 months? It's going to be more than one sleepless engineer.
There are people out there that want this type of performance. How do you tune an organization to accomplish such a task? One thing is Onshape and collaboration. If I hire 10 engineers, can I reduce the time to 10%?
Most companies would assign each engineer a piece of the machine only to assembly it months later. You start with a part and eventually put it in an assembly. This is bottom up design and performance is poor especially towards the end of the project when everything's coming together. You end up with 5 engineers fixing what the other 5 engineers created.
My point, start with an assembly (layout), hand the engineers a seed with all the proper references defined and tell them to stay inside the box. Months later everything begins to take shape. All assemblies are oriented properly. The floor's defined so all automated equipment is at the right height. As you approach day 90, it looks like a machine. This is top down. You start with an assembly, then you define the sub-assys down to the parts.
In solidwork you'd gather all the assemblies nightly or weekly and open the top level to witness the chaos. In onshape, if it's done right, you'll be able to watch the project grow real-time.
When this happens, desktop file-based CAD systems will be obsolete.
Keep the layout simple and drive everything. If you want it done right the 1st time and if you have multiple engineers working together, get the project layout right. It's more than a 2d drawing.
I think we're talking about 2 different things. Seems like you have a facility and you're trying to create a 3D representation of your facility. Me, on the other hand, have an idea and want to make it into reality.
I too use blocks inside solidworks.
As I see it, the problem (at least in woodworking machinery) today is that every few years they clear the table and create completely new frames, units, software, everything..
For example edgebanding machine, weight 10tn, length 12meter, price 0.5M€ - should be able to renew unit by unit, I consider it as bad design that new units need new frames and world is filled with old crap. Only thing I know about metal is the fact that old metal frame would be actually settled better than new shipped from factory.
Maybe next gen will apply more standard stuff into machinery - why use industrial $$$$ touchscreen pcs while you could create app for $399 ipad, if that brokes you get new one from market and install app, load parameters from cloud, connect usb and continue work. And Ipad screen is way better than industrial plastic.
@billy2 Yes, I have facilities and I'm constantly figuring out better layout with different combination of existing and new machinery. And yes, we have to make quite many cabinets etc. to pay for machinery - though we don't make kitchen stuff and don't have the most ridiculously expensive machines. The 'line' in video would be around 2+M€ and still needs bunch of employees to run - no good - but I suppose that's just to give idea about their products.
The bottom up problems you mention appear also in finished product, one unit using 6mm screws while other is 8mm; covers blocking greese nipples, poor design forcing me to rip the whole unit off for opening some cover screws etc..
I truly hope things would change so that me 'the consumer' don't always think that I should have made this machine myself